BC: The Making of a Rogue Tank... - Page 2

Kalman · 08/29/06, 1:43 PM

The interesting/fun part of it would be in how reactively it would be played - you need to spend energy/CP to maximize aggro, but you also need to save energy/CP to allow you an escape via Flourish/Ghostly Strike. How do you balance aggro generation vs. not dying - rogue tanks would be less able to *controllably* keep aggro off their party members but would have as many tools or more than warriors to personally, reactively - not die. It would require different strategies, and would be good in different situations, and wouldn't replace warriors as the all around tank king (*especially* with the revamped prot tree), but it would provide an interesting secondary role to a class completely lacking in secondary roles at the moment.

Since it would mainly require changes in subtlety and in base skills/itemization/poisons, rogues only interested in damage can ignore it as not affecting them, since the damage trees don't tend to touch subtlety.

Something like http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=iZ0xxdZVrxohGooeqt would be the base dodge-tank build, with the 3 spare points potentially going to either Imp BS (improve DPS when not tanking) or Precision (reduce missrate effects on your threat generating moves). Pair that build with something like a Widow's Remorse/DS weapon combo.

It is absolutely a potentially useful idea, and could be a lot of fun if done right.

Avair · 08/29/06, 1:51 PM

Agreed Kalman.

The basic gist is that is new interesting choice, which doesn't overpower us in PvP (its a PvP spec already) and gives subtlety rogues a viable raid spec. It would take smart player I think to get the most out of the spec, and that is what making it really compelling to me.

Kalman · 08/29/06, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by maxpowers

I think it will all come down to what types of bosses / encounters bliz throws into the expansion, you could design an encounter that would faciliate needing a rogue spec'd for cloak of shadows, or you could make encounters where rogue tanking would be a terrible, terrible idea. Going against everything that I had just said, if we look at current encounters and gear, even with all the new "gee whiz" talents rogues would still be very, very bad at tanking almost all encounters to date. We just don't have the mitagation, or hp to do it effectively at the moment. Add to that the fact that paladins and druids are only going to get better at tanking (or even warlocks if you consider high magic fights), I just don't see the need nor the place for rogues to try tanking save some gimmicky encounters.

A properly specced rogue in *existing* gear can hit very high mitigation rates. In the extreme case, look at the profile labeled "Retarded Dodgetank" in my ctprofile - with that build, you're looking at 55.6% *unbuffed* dodge and 10.1% unbuffed parry. And probably there are better choices to be made, since that profile was specifically targeted at maxing out dodge, not min/maxing mitigation.

That gives you 73% *full* mitigation, base. 55% dodge, 9.6% parry, 8.4% miss rate, after adjusting for a level 63 mob, slightly better for 60-62 mobs which a rogue would more likely offtank. With GS up, that's an unbuffed full mitigation rate of 88%.

Unbuffed.

With consumables/buffs, you're looking at around an extra 6.87% dodge for alliance (MotW, Mongoose or Greater Agi, and Kings) or 7.83% as horde (GoA3+talent, MotW, Mongoose/Agi).

That pretty much settles the too much overall damage issue, I'd think. It comes down to whether a rogue can survive a single large hit (crush/crit) - at that point, it's up to the rogue/healers to reactively use skills to prevent a second hit from taking the rogue down before healing can get them back to full.

(profile I speak of is http://ctprofiles.net/341395)

probiscus · 08/29/06, 2:04 PM

What about "subtlety" to you guys translates into "I'm a tank lol".

Actually, I take it back: one of BC's new races flew in via spaceship.

Did you guys hear that? I think that was the sound of a shark jumping!

:P

spronk · 08/29/06, 2:05 PM

tank = high sta/ac class that innately mitigates large amounts of damage, has abilities to snap reduce damage, and snap aggro abilities. the lack of snap aggro for paladins in release wow made paladins poor tanks.

leather armor and the fact that most of the talents add a very low amount (+15%, -4%, +10%, etc) to an already low base number make a rogue tank questionable.

Yes, if a mob starts running towards clothies a rogue can pull aggro off healers, pop evasion, and tank for a few seconds until a druid/paladin/warrior gets it back. But whats the point of having a high damage dealing class now start tanking non-trivial off-mobs while soaking up healer mana?

Anything is do-able, shadow priests can tank well, warlocks tank TE's very well, and there will probably be a few gimmick fights in BC where rogues may have to tank a few mobs.

Alternatively you could have raid encounters designed like PVP encounters, where bosses are smart and go after squishes first ("KILL THE HEALERS!"). Then I agree rogue tanks would be great. A front line of plate to hold most of the waves, a middle line of rogues to slow anything that might get through, and squishes in the back dealing ranged and healing. I hope for the day blizzard designs encounters like this instead of the "duhhh... i'm a retard... lemme attack this warrior first cuz he keeps calling me names!" bosses. But no matter what rogues shouldn't be up front, they are the subtlety class that look for the opportune moment to strike, that hide in the shadows, that are bodyguards to the healers, etc...

Kalman · 08/29/06, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by spronk

tank = high sta/ac class that innately mitigates large amounts of damage, has abilities to snap reduce damage, and snap aggro abilities. the lack of snap aggro for paladins in release wow made paladins poor tanks.

No, tank = class taking the majority of the hits. It doesn't matter exactly how they survive those hits or how they make sure they're taking them, as long as they do survive the hits and they are taking the hits.

Evasion-tanking classes have been quite successful in other games (FFXI, apparently, and pre-xpac Anarchy Online saw a fair amount of fixers using Grid Armor to tank - speaking as someone who tanked endgame mobs in GA, it worked just fine). If Blizzard doesn't want to design in that mechanic, that's one thing, but people saying "It can't work" are just talking from ignorance.

But no matter what rogues shouldn't be up front, they are the subtlety class that look for the opportune moment to strike, that hide in the shadows, that are bodyguards to the healers, etc...

No matter what priests should be only able to keep other people alive, no matter what druids should alternate between saving lives and hugging trees, no matter what paladins should buff and cleanse, no matter what warlocks should just come to CoR/CoE for the real DPS classes, no matter what shamans should just sit back and heal, etc, etc, etc.

What about choice and options scares people so much? Expansions are the times when major changes occur in a game. Expanding people's choices and options seems to be a goal of Blizzard's, and rogues are one of the classes which *isn't* seeing an expansion of role or options. This is a proposal about how to change that.

Celandro · 08/29/06, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by maxpowers

I think it will all come down to what types of bosses / encounters bliz throws into the expansion, you could design an encounter that would faciliate needing a rogue spec'd for cloak of shadows, or you could make encounters where rogue tanking would be a terrible, terrible idea. Going against everything that I had just said, if we look at current encounters and gear, even with all the new "gee whiz" talents rogues would still be very, very bad at tanking almost all encounters to date. We just don't have the mitagation, or hp to do it effectively at the moment. Add to that the fact that paladins and druids are only going to get better at tanking (or even warlocks if you consider high magic fights), I just don't see the need nor the place for rogues to try tanking save some gimmicky encounters.

fight by fight ranking out of 5 possible, will only do fights i have fought personally, someone else can add others. A 4 is approximately equal to warrior with 15 prot.
BWL
5 Razorgore P1- can tank orcs (and I bet most rogues already do)
1 Razorgore P2 - emergency
4 Vael - 30s of no melee dmg and 8s of no spell dmg is great on a short fight
2 Broodlord - due to knockbacks could tank for about 30s then would need to vanish, risky though
1 Drakes - emergency
1 Chromagus - emergency
3 Nef P1 - can tank adds, especially the big guys

AQ40
2 Skeram - can tank splits for short periods
1 Trio - emergency
2 Sartura - stuns help, would be much better if given a taunt
3 Fankriss - can tank worms or bugs, esp if given an aoe taunt
1 huhu - emergency
2 TE - emergency or could take an entire tank rotation

Naxx
2 Instructor - can help pull
4 Anub - can tank adds, stuns help

The main issues in the fights above agro or spike damage related. I would suggest only fixing the agro issues, as fixing spike damage would make rogues too powerful.

Avair · 08/29/06, 2:30 PM

What about "subtlety" to you guys translates into "I'm a tank lol".

No stretch of the imagination required. Think of it as the subtle touch of a skilled fencer rather than brute toughness of hulking guy in plate. The guy who parries every blow and narrowly avoids every hit and you just can't touch. Fantasy literature is strewn with these archtypes (Think Drizzt Do'Urden from the R.A. Salvatore Forgotten realm series)

Kalman · 08/29/06, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Keydar

WoW site is down so I can't check myself, but what is the cooldown on flourish? I'm assuming there has to be one otherwise you could continually execute 1 combo point flourishes for 3 seconds of 50% parry.

Flourish wasn't listen on the WoW site; it may be something they're testing/playing around with, or something they've already discarded (which would make me sad).

The reason you can't continually execute 1 CP Flourishes is because a 1 CP Flourish costs more energy than you'll generate during the 3 seconds of parry when you include the cost of generating the CP.

Dakous · 08/29/06, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Andrise

29% inherent threat reduction does not a viable tank make.

What's weird is that if a rogue wants aggro, a rogue really doesn't have a problem getting aggro.

It's almost like those feint and vanish skills are still handy even with that -aggro modifier. Why is that?

Kalman · 08/29/06, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Keydar

Originally Posted by Kalman

Flourish wasn't listen on the WoW site; it may be something they're testing/playing around with, or something they've already discarded (which would make me sad).

The reason you can't continually execute 1 CP Flourishes is because a 1 CP Flourish costs more energy than you'll generate during the 3 seconds of parry when you include the cost of generating the CP.

Well if it really costs 25 energy, with ruthlessness strings, or setup, I don't see this as impossible, unless you have exactly 0 energy after using it. If this were the case however, you could hit evasion, regain energy, or thistle tea etc, and start flourish again. This is a bit luck based, but still :P.

Yeah, which is why I'd have to assume it would either get a CD or not be put in, in its current form its a bit too strong.

Celandro · 08/29/06, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

A properly specced rogue in *existing* gear can hit very high mitigation rates. In the extreme case, look at the profile labeled "Retarded Dodgetank" in my ctprofile - with that build, you're looking at 55.6% *unbuffed* dodge and 10.1% unbuffed parry. And probably there are better choices to be made, since that profile was specifically targeted at maxing out dodge, not min/maxing mitigation.

That gives you 73% *full* mitigation, base. 55% dodge, 9.6% parry, 8.4% miss rate, after adjusting for a level 63 mob, slightly better for 60-62 mobs which a rogue would more likely offtank. With GS up, that's an unbuffed full mitigation rate of 88%.

Unbuffed.

With consumables/buffs, you're looking at around an extra 6.87% dodge for alliance (MotW, Mongoose or Greater Agi, and Kings) or 7.83% as horde (GoA3+talent, MotW, Mongoose/Agi).

What you really want as a rogue tank is +90 def, 50.6% dodge buffed, then hps. This will prevent all crits and will put you at 100% dodge with evasion up.

• tenshi · 08/29/06, 2:46 PM

There is a question this raises for me. What type of encounter do you expect in TBC that would need rogue tanking beyond what's currently being done occasionally?

In the 25 man raid, we have warriors, and paladins to tank, and possibly even feral druids. So how many mobs do we need to tank at once?

It seems to me like rogue dodge/evasion tanking already is part of the game. I'm not sure why we need to extend that further when there are other classes that blizzard has already put effort into so that we can tank.

Also given that what rogues do best is single target damage, I don't see the win of this particular trade off to the raid, esp. when there are 3 other classes that could tank if necessary, w/o any changes to the game beyond what is already planned.

♦ Praetorian · 08/29/06, 2:48 PM

This is the strangest theorycraft thread I have ever seen in my life. Are people really devoting this many words to this subject?

Rogues are getting survivability talents to make them less fragile in PvP, against casters especially, and a bit sturdier in raid settings. That's not an invitation to put yourself in harm's way.

Barring gimmicks like Razuvious or Patchwerk-at-3%-oh-god-burn-him, consistent mitigation is superior to avoidance. It doesn't matter if you have an 80% chance of taking 0 damage from something -- if you have a 20% chance of dying instantly, you can't tank it.

Celandro · 08/29/06, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

This is the strangest theorycraft thread I have ever seen in my life. Are people really devoting this many words to this subject?

Rogues are getting survivability talents to make them less fragile in PvP, against casters especially, and a bit sturdier in raid settings. That's not an invitation to put yourself in harm's way.

Barring gimmicks like Razuvious or Patchwerk-at-3%-oh-god-burn-him, consistent mitigation is superior to avoidance. It doesn't matter if you have an 80% chance of taking 0 damage from something -- if you have a 20% chance of dying instantly, you can't tank it.

Giving hemo spec rogues a raid role is a valid goal. If they can add +5% melee damage when rend is on a mob so pvp spec warriors have a raid role, I dont see why they cant add the very few things required to give hemo rogues a raid role.

Evasion tanks have been a valid class choice in other MMORPGs. Whats the harm in giving rogues a few threat poisons?

I did want to comment on itemization. Assuming that jewelcrafting is not class specific, it should be possible for a rogue to put in the +def and +sta jewels that would allow them to tank