Well I think there are a few fundamental problems with a rogue being a tank, but I don't disagree that the mitigation, hp, etc. can be comparable between a rogue and a warrior.

In my current load-out I have about 54% pure melee damage avoidance, and 33% mitigation from armor (standard raid buffs), netting me an effective mitigation of ~69% vs all incoming melee attacks. I have about 5k HP raid buffed and can easily hit 5.5K+ HP with an imp. In theory it would take an unmitigated hit of ~7300 damage to one-shot me, but that's very possible on a crit or a double crush.

Here's the flaws with having a rogue tank, based on current game mechanics:
1) You cannot dodge or parry if you are stunned. That's a very large chunk of your mitigation that you can lose pretty easily. If I die to a TL chromaggus resist, it's because I had a bronze affliction proc. Warstomps, webs, etc. are also bad juju.

2) To our knowledge, the result of every melee attack is based off a "single roll" system. I *think* (and this is where someone will probably correct me because I'm wrong) that if you add more dodge and parry it does not reduce the probability of being crit or crushed on each attack - unless you have pushed all of the regular hits off the table's possible results and then start pushing the crit/crushes off. So then the table looks something like 60% miss/parry/dodge (with crazy gear/spec), 20% hit, 5% crit, 15% crush. i.e. 50% of the incoming swings that connect are high damage.

If that's the case, you won't get hit very often, but when you do, it will have a very high probability of being a nasty spike (and you don't have the base AC to soak a spike, so you probably need a lot of HP or stoneshield pots). Healers need to do a big heal/cancel rotation rather than a HR2 strategy. That will be less efficient from a hp/m perspective as your raid gets more +healing gear, but the bonuses from being in the 5 second rule more often may outweigh it. In addition, heal over time spells don't do you a lot of good, because if you get hit by 2 swings in a row, you could die.

3) I don't think our new passive spell resistance talents will equal the warrior's 10% reduction from defensive stance, but it depends on the source of the spell damage. We definitely will not equal a protection warrior after the expansion.

4) As some people have already pointed out, the itemization doesnt' support it. I have over 440 agility in BF (I could conceivably hit 500+ with totems, talents, and BoK). As I start replacing that with DD or BS pieces, my agility will actually go down and be replaced by str and pure AP items. So as my ability to hold aggro through greater damage dealt goes up, my defense against incoming damage will go down.

5) Any fight that has a de-aggro component would be painful to try and tank with 29% passive threat reduction and no taunting ability.

Block isn't full mitigation, and you continue to ignore the effect consumables/buffs have. That warrior can be critted more frequently than my avoidance tank can (.48% vs. 1.36%), has less total reduction (77.5% mitigation and 56.3% avoidance vs 80% avoidance and 50% mitigation - assumes Stoneshield pots, but without them you're looking at 67% mitigation and 56.3% avoidance vs 80% avoidance and 30% mitigation, rogue comes out very slightly ahead). Remember, warriors can basically assume they're capping AC with buffs/consumables at this point, and will waste a fair portion of Inspiration as a result. Rogues will benefit fully from consumables and buffs.

That warrior is still 25% away from pushing crushing entirely off the table. The rogue can push everything off the table for 7s out of every 20, more than long enough for healers to get them back to full, if they reactively use GS after crush (exactly the same as warriors reactively using SB after crush/crit).

And even if the warrior is slightly ahead with consumables, you realize you've just admitted that a rogue is in the same league? Obviously we're 90% of the way.

So rogues don't tank stun mobs. Nobody's trying to suggest rogues as primary tanks, simply as solid secondaries who can be primaries on certain encounters.

As long as the crush doesn't one-shot you, doesn't matter, you have healers for that. HoTs are less efficient, but shields are more efficient, because they tend to be applied to nearly every successful attack, not just one out of every 10.

(And rogues are 6-12 defense away from being uncrittable, so it's pretty much just crushing to worry about.)

For AoE, we'll take about 85% damage, prot warrior will take about the same. For direct damage, warrior's superior. Again, it comes down to picking your fights.

http://www.ctprofiles.net/2765532

That's with existing itemization. Minor changes to itemization to aid both rogues and druids and itemization does support it.

You didn't read the original post, did you.

While I'm definately not against the idea of characters being able to fulfill multiple rolls, in fact I'm very much in support of it, let me just say one sleight thing.

What you're suggesting would be effectively adding Patchwerk's hateful strike mechanic to every fight where you desire to use a rogue. That shit is extremely taxing on healers, even when you consider the third HS tank who may get hit once every 10-15 seconds.

Monks wanting to be rampage tanks in EQ was bad enough. Please, think of the healers. 8(

Those rare special occasions where evasion tanking is a must have are nice. But honestly, all these "OMG SURVIVAL HUNTER, PROT PALADIN, COMBAT/SUB ROGUE, ENHANCEMENT SHAMAN, FERAL DRUID, SOUL-LINK LOCK and SHADOW PRIEST OFF TANKS WILL BE GLORIOUS IN TBC!" threads keep basing their assumptions off one pretty big, uh, assumption. That there will be a dozen mobs to tank during pulls specifically for them to tank. Currently with the ability to bring 20 warriors, the most tank quantity intensive fights are maybe, what, Skeram and 4H? And to a lesser degree things like Garr, Domo, Noth, etc...but even though you can get by with 4 well geared tanks or so.

Let's be honest here guys, the closest you're really going to get to off-tanking is Huhuran style ogre-walls and the occasional evasion tanking. These talents speak more to me of Blizzard wanting to help you guys stop getting insta-gibbed, not turn you into sub-par tanks/dps.

Keep hope alive guys, I agree. But don't exactly go into a rage when you find out that there are no tier4 rogue epic swords with +2% dodge, +1% parry that proc mocking blow.

What? That agility is more efficient stat for rogues than strength is for warriors?

Well, it is, especially considering in a tanking role, we get 100% benefit from it. We get AP, crit, dodge and armor from it and it costs the same as 1 strength for warrior, who get block and AP. In addition, our dodge scales faster than it does for warriors.

Part of this discussion centers around the need for broadening the classes that can tank. How many warriors will raids be bringing in 25 man raids? Is it good balance to need 4-6? Which classes don't get the invite then? Paladins are getting tanking skills in the expansion. What not add rogues while you are at it?

Nezralix, it isn't just *a good ammount*, it is more than double avoidance that even the avoidance warriors have. In current itemization assuming we are in the expansion now(so kings and grace of air, 10% agi talent, etc..)rogues can get to 85%+ dodge/parry/miss. Considering better itemization, sockets, and etc.. and that it only takes a couple more points of dodge from it to go from "You might be able to survive a boss if you get lucky." to "Okay, only have priest1 on our MT rogue, and only casting shields every 30 sec. and healing him if he gets hit".

All I know is that I've tanked tons of current end-game bosses with 28% dodge + 50% evasion until evasion fades, so if I went the extra mile and got better than that passive I wouldn't have much of a problem.

And I'd think that rogues would have tanked something by now if it was viable.

Any ability that would two-shot someone with 65% mitigation would one-shot someone with 30% mitigation.

How many rogues do you know with a Mark of C'thun, Styleen's Scarab, 2x Blessed Qiraji Warhammer, and an Onyxia Blood Talisman? Not to mention the Veklor tanking ring.

It's viable, but *no one* is going to give them the gear to do it.

But a stoneshield potion takes me to 50% mitigation, and only takes that 65% mitigated damage to 75%. Try again.

And I've explained why it doesn't need to be "specifically crafted for a rogue". This is not "YOU ARE NOT A BEAR, I AM LOOKING FOR A BEAR!". It's entire classes of encounters where avoidance tanking is frankly superior.

Ironically, if a rogue could get 12 more defense than I managed (or even 6, you could shift enchants to core armor kits to make up 6 more), they'd make a better Patchwerk MT than a warrior. No crushing blows to worry about, no crits, superior mitigation, no ability to be one-shotted and a reactive method (GS) to give healers time if they get low on health.

Yes.

The beauty of it is, Blizzard can take druid tank gear, and make it useble for both classes via sockets. Few additional items are needed. How does that hurt the average rogue at all?

It is, but at the same time, rogues are *extremely* close to being able to reactively give healers a breathing period. If I can use Ghostly Strike to push above 100% (5% more full mitigation - I can actually hit it in a different profile, but it doesn't do as solid a job dropping criticals vs. me), that gives healers 7 seconds to get me back up and puts the burden on *me* when it occurs. While I understand the concern from healers re: spike damage, in practice it isn't like a warrior trying to avoidance tank. Warriors lack controlled methods of boosting avoidance. Rogues don't. Think of it like warriors reactively shieldblocking when they get hit with UBS.

I'm not expecting it, I'm just having fun making the people who say "OMGWTFCAN'TWORK" look dumb.

So... don't use a rogue tank on that encounter?

Is this really that hard to comprehend? There will be encounters unsuitable for avoidance tanking. There can also be encounters where avoidance tanking is useful, or even optimal. Stop trying to argue that rogues can't tank all encounters - no one is saying they can. Stop trying to argue that they can't tank any encounters - obviously they can, and in many cases better than a mitigation tank.

Allow me to introduce myself.

Get the rest of the collection, then we'll talk. :p

Indeed, it was proven some time ago that Armor/Mitigation has diminishing returns, however Mitigation/DPS Taken is linear. An important fact considering the difference between 12000 (warrior with stoneshield) and 16000 (bearform) armor.

And honestly, if rogues are so hard up for a change in pace with different viable raiding options, feel free to reroll a druid so you can enjoy being the hybrid that never was, at least your class description hasn't changed twice sence release. Even in TBC, we're going to just be different flavors of Healbot /bitter

I don't know Boevis, if the leaked druid talents are half-real we might see some good things for feral and balance.

Basically you're saying this thread is about rogue tanking, which you say won't happen, but could happen given itemization and the TBC talents. Its kinda a contradictory thing. The reason I think it won't happen is because there will be enough tanks in a raid. How many encounters require 5+ tanks? Because with 2-3 warriors, 1-2 ferals, 1-2 protadins, I'm not seeing a reason for another class to step up in a 25man.

It IS "You're not a bear I'm looking for a bear", don't deny that. Wow does not lend itself to avoidance tanking, I can't think of any non-gimmick encounters where we wouldn't just plow through with a warrior anyways. If we have an encounter where a mob will two shot a warrior tank we step up the healing (patchwerk anyone?) I guess if you threw a fankriss style -healing debuff onto hateful then you'd have a situation where the warrior couldn't tank it, but there's the "Looking for a bear" part.

Our best rogue usually tanks phase 3 onyxia for fun in his AQ set. Its definately possible for a rogue to hold aggro on a raid. It is ALSO possible for spot on healers to heal him through flame breath in no FR gear (we prequeue for it) and when he pops eva its 100% mit for a regen break. We've even done it with no dwarf priests, just letting him get feared with the rest (another blow against rogue tanks, no way to consistently mit fear.) But that fight is a very near thing. I'm saying anything that hits marginally harder than Onyxia would kill him even with his extemely high avoidance, before we could heal him. Also what happens when your avoidance tank fails to avoid 2 or even 3 hits in a row. It will happen, avoidance tanking is at its core luck based.

In FFXI, avoidance tanking was possible because of Utsusemi, this made avoidance regular, predictable. There is no way to do that in WOW and until there is pure avoidance tanking will never be reliable OR safe.

Sure, if the player in question isn't looking at 85%+ avoidance with controllable boosts to 100%. Spike damage causes tank deaths because the tank gets one-rounded. An avoidance tank as described here can more or less avoid that.

Again, I'll point to Patchwerk HS tanks. No one can avoid being killed if HS slaps them twice. So once you have enough armor/HP to avoid being one-shotted, avoidance provides superior returns.

Don't.

Use.

Rogues.

On.

Heavy.

Magic.

Damage.

Encounters.

Are you so dumb as to completely ignore the first five times I said that?

Any stacking debuff encounter is better suited for avoidance tanking.

Any encounter where you can't get the damage received down below two-shot range is better suited for avoidance tanking.

The difference between entire classes of encounter being mechanically BETTER for a rogue and "YOU ARE NOT A BEAR" is a world of difference.

Not to mention a funny point: let's pretend hypothetical rogue tank has 12 more defense than that profile provides. He is now a superior MT for Patchwerk to a warrior.

He can't be crit. Patchwerk doesn't crush. A Patchwerk melee attack will hit him for ~4-4.5k, meaning that when consumabled up he will be three-shottable, but not two-shottable. He'll also have around 80% avoidance and 50% armor, compared to a consumabled warrior sitting at 35-45% avoidance and 75% armor. He's arguably a superior Patchwerk tank to a warrior.

Are you going to claim *Patchwerk* is a "YOU ARE NOT A BEAR" encounter?

If your avoidance tank fails to react to incoming damage fast enough to prevent being two-shotted, that's *his* fault, just like if healers fail to react to spike damage fast enough to avoid a mitigation tank death, it's their fault. It puts more burden on the tank to reactively use abilities, and it becomes more necessary for healers to

80-85% avoidance + Ghostly Strike. Avoidance is regular, predictable.

It worked in games that aren't FFXI, without controllable avoidance, stop pretending it's impossible.

Tanks aren't randomly hit by HS twice, it happens because other tanks aren't healed quickly enough, making it irrelevant to the discussion.
I meant magical as in non-exant, but you're free to call me an idiot all you want just because you focus on one word rather than the context.

You are aware that mala'dath with +15 agility enchant is (the easier) most of that weapon, right?

Throw in one of those dozens of Sunder-esq proc weapons, but juice up the PPM and proc hate...

(I got the point, I just felt like poking at the example)

No, it isn't irrelevant. The point being, mitigation has essentially stepwise returns. If an ability is going to hit a warrior with 10k health for 8k, even if he can reduce it to 7k, it'll still twoshot him, you're still relying on healing to bring him back up above the danger mark. All reducing the damage inflicted does is reduce heal burden, and in many ways avoidance is superior in that role, unless you can take it from two shots to three.

Ah. After the idiocy most of the people have come up with, I assumed you were the same caliber. My apologies.

That kind of ability approaches "YOU ARE NOT A BEAR". Which we're trying to avoid here. However, remember that itemization is very much a problem right now for this role, and that assuming the role was added, itemization would also be added. Which would likely bring rogue HP up to the same class as warrior HP.

Well since were talking about HS, lets look at it:

Hateful Strike: 22100-29900

The average warrior will have 70% mitigation meaning he'll take about 6700-9000 dmg, it will two shot him every time assuming he has around 12k hp.

As one of the offtanks you have a rogue with 80% avoidance and around 30% mitigation, he also somehow has the same hp as the warrior. After mitigation hell take 15 000 - 21 000 damage. He'll be one-shot.

Avoidance is only good after you have loads of hard mitigation.