That's funny, because there's a gigantic stink about how overpowered 8 to all stats is and that Ring Enchants should be available to all classes over at the Beta Profession forums. :|
Although I do wonder which is better for PvP, Netherweave Nets or +20 spell damage, hmm.
Also what about the Sapphiron shoulder enchant? That is a massive, massive boost for tanking warriors so although they might not give us exactly the same thing it does make it a lot harder to replace my T3 shoulders if there is no alternative.
Oh come on 16 stamina does not deserve "massive massive" irreplaceable.
There are tons of shoulder, hat and pant enchants in the expansion just from the faction rewards I've seen so nobody needs to worry about any of that.
That's funny, because there's a gigantic stink about how overpowered 8 to all stats is and that Ring Enchants should be available to all classes over at the Beta Profession forums. :|
Although I do wonder which is better for PvP, Netherweave Nets or +20 spell damage, hmm.
Well, I want to be able to net/MC/rocketsap people, but gee, I'm not an engineer, am I?
Every profession *should* have some toys only available to people of that profession. Jewelcrafting, enchanting, engineering appear to be well set in that regard already, so now it just remains to be seen what they do for smiths (the weapons might fill this role) or tailors or LWers.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Although nets are fun, I'm not sure if that's enough.
But it's the right idea, for sure - each profession gets something giving it an advantage, a small one, roughly equivalent but in different directions. Not enough to pick a profession for it (seriously, if you're considering leveling enchanting just to get +8 stats, you're *crazy*), but enough to provide a minor "I can do this and you can't!" for a member of that profession.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
Well the people crying about enchanting perks are mainly raiders I guess, once you're min maxing and have the very best gear around, perks from other professions are probably not worth the stats gain. But my opinion is, well be it, if every min maxing raider has to be enchanting, why not, it's not like every PvPer until now that was remotely serious about it wasn't an engineer. I don't get why those people are crying for, it's not like leveling enchanting is that hard, you don't even need a 2nd gathering profession to make it work. Then again, it's probably the same people who complained about the arena netherdrake mount. Beta forums have turned into normal forums by now, it's really quite annoying to read.
Oh and to stay with the OP, I hope they make some ranged weap enchants with procs instead of passive scopes. Mini master tactician and stuff like that
Well the people crying about enchanting perks are mainly raiders I guess, once you're min maxing and have the very best gear around, perks from other professions are probably not worth the stats gain. But my opinion is, well be it, if every min maxing raider has to be enchanting, why not, it's not like every PvPer until now that was remotely serious about it wasn't an engineer.
Well, proabably "requiring" a profession in order to maximise your effectiveness in an area of the game is dumb. Engineering is unique
among professions becuase most of the patterns require the player to have made it themselves, or at least be an engineer of a specific level. Enchanting (and other professions) are obviously more profitable because anyone can use (most of the time) your product.
If every serious raider is "forced" to level enchanting to get the ring enchants, the worth of enchanting goes down a great deal, as people are simply enchanting their own gear all the time, and the "Guild Enchanter" vanishes.
Originally Posted by Pyros
I don't get why those people are crying for, it's not like leveling enchanting is that hard, you don't even need a 2nd gathering profession to make it work. Then again, it's probably the same people who complained about the arena netherdrake mount. Beta forums have turned into normal forums by now, it's really quite annoying to read.
I fail to see how the ease of leveling a profession is relevant since you can only have two. I can hardly imagine seeing "hey a new ring, time to drop leatherworking or engineering and level my enchanting back up so I can enchant it because leveling enchanting is so easy" in guild chat.
Also, maybe the reason ranged weapons can't use the awesomeness that is dual crusader is because of the safty factor of being 40 yards away from the bad guys? I don't know if that really makes sense though, and my little hunter would definatly like some proc enchants.
\"Listen, I\'m trying to have a serious conversation about ferret bras and you are not listening\"
That's funny, because there's a gigantic stink about how overpowered 8 to all stats is and that Ring Enchants should be available to all classes over at the Beta Profession forums. :|
Although I do wonder which is better for PvP, Netherweave Nets or +20 spell damage, hmm.
Well, I want to be able to net/MC/rocketsap people, but gee, I'm not an engineer, am I?
Every profession *should* have some toys only available to people of that profession. Jewelcrafting, enchanting, engineering appear to be well set in that regard already, so now it just remains to be seen what they do for smiths (the weapons might fill this role) or tailors or LWers.
I think alchemists need a few more little toys too. Aside from the Alchemist's Stone (which hogs a trinket slot), they probably should get something that aligns with their specialization. A good idea would be for Blizzard to limit the number of buffs you can have to one potion buff, one absorption potion buff, one flask buff and one elixir. Then, if you pick Potion specialization, you could have two potion buffs. If you pick elixir specialization, you could have two elixir buffs. And transmutation specialization could have two absorption buffs. Or something like that...
i'm actually pretty excited about the LW drums, myself. the weird thing is the profession that seems LEAST exciting in TBC is engineering...perhaps the pendulum is swinging too far in the other direction.
That's funny, because there's a gigantic stink about how overpowered 8 to all stats is and that Ring Enchants should be available to all classes over at the Beta Profession forums. :|
Although I do wonder which is better for PvP, Netherweave Nets or +20 spell damage, hmm.
Well, I want to be able to net/MC/rocketsap people, but gee, I'm not an engineer, am I?
Every profession *should* have some toys only available to people of that profession. Jewelcrafting, enchanting, engineering appear to be well set in that regard already, so now it just remains to be seen what they do for smiths (the weapons might fill this role) or tailors or LWers.
I think alchemists need a few more little toys too. Aside from the Alchemist's Stone (which hogs a trinket slot), they probably should get something that aligns with their specialization. A good idea would be for Blizzard to limit the number of buffs you can have to one potion buff, one absorption potion buff, one flask buff and one elixir. Then, if you pick Potion specialization, you could have two potion buffs. If you pick elixir specialization, you could have two elixir buffs. And transmutation specialization could have two absorption buffs. Or something like that...
I agree. I don't think the Alchemist's Stone is enough reason to have more than 2 guild alchemists.
Assuming druids are allowed to play hybrid roles, the trinket is really nice for druid alchemists. But for casters, it's pretty terrible. Two completely wasted stats, one of situational usefulness (stam), and two or constant, yet marginal usefulness (int[though I guess the spell crit from int should mean something...]/spirit) with 40% potion increases, at the cost of a trinket slot? Its use is too esoteric and pure stats are generally just not as desirable as hit/crit/ap/spell hit/spell crit/spell damage.
I'm not saying alchemy sucks. Because it doesn't. It's incredibly powerful and versatile and useful. But the reason to have more than one alchemist in your guild, aside from availability, is not terribly compelling.
While the potion increase effect is somewhat situational, given the right situation it can be really amazing. For a fight like sapphiron or pw (at least in the early days) or any fight where you are using potions on cooldown, the potion effect is worth between 20-40 mp5 without even taking into account the extra stats.
Right now, the LW drums have an absolutely TINY buff radius - not even melee range. I have to have my pet literally right next to me for it to get the buff from my drums of war. I can't make any of the other drums yet, but I can't imagine they'd have differing buff radii.
Well, proabably "requiring" a profession in order to maximise your effectiveness in an area of the game is dumb. Engineering is unique
among professions becuase most of the patterns require the player to have made it themselves, or at least be an engineer of a specific level. Enchanting (and other professions) are obviously more profitable because anyone can use (most of the time) your product.
If every serious raider is "forced" to level enchanting to get the ring enchants, the worth of enchanting goes down a great deal, as people are simply enchanting their own gear all the time, and the "Guild Enchanter" vanishes.
Well forced is a big word, which is why you quoted it I guess, no one is forced to level it, but if you want to min max you'll get enchanting. Same deal with consumables, in theory no one has to farm consumables, yet you do when you raid. Well most people do. I dont really see a problem with it, if you don't want to get it, you don't, you'll have -30healing or -6stats, and it won't break your char. It's just that you will do 0.5% less dps at equal gear than an enchanter, or heal a tad bit worse. The profitable part has nothing to do with it really, engineering can be profitable in certain conditions(reflectors sold quite good when they introduced them, thorium widgets still sell for perfect DM runs every once in a while, it's not great but you can still make a bit of money).
Also, the guild enchanter does not vanish, he will still have alll the good rare drop plans. If everyone in your guild is enchanting, it doesn't mean bosses will maically drop 25patterns each time they die. Actually in my guild, a lot of people are already enchanters so they can get nexus out of their used gear. They're also either herbalists to farm herbs for pots themselves or engineers to pvp. We still have guild enchanters, because most of the people who can disenchant don't have more than 60 in enchanting anyway, and even those with 300 still fight for the rare patterns that drop to be able to make money selling them. If everyone had 300enchanting, it wouldn't change the fact only a few of them would have the rare patterns.
If your guild as a whole gets enchanting, the only thing that happens is everyone can disenchant their own greens without sending them to the guild enchanter(annoying as hell) and provide mats for their enchants, but besides those personal ring enchants, they will still ask the guild enchanters for the rare cloak -10%threat enchant or whatever drops from Joe the last boss before Kaelthas.
Originally Posted by Evert
I fail to see how the ease of leveling a profession is relevant since you can only have two. I can hardly imagine seeing "hey a new ring, time to drop leatherworking or engineering and level my enchanting back up so I can enchant it because leveling enchanting is so easy" in guild chat.
Why not, I often do it with mining and herbalism, when I have 4-5epics laying in my bank, I drop one, train enchanting, DE them, then level back my gathering skill. Sure it will take more time, but it's not impossible to do at 70 when you can farm most instances for greens in a matter of minutes. Sure it's annoying on a whole another level, but if you're such a perfectionist that you can't live without 2minor enchants, then why not do it. Would take 2-3days at most if you play a lot, and if you're willing to do it, you probably play a lot. If not, just take enchanting as one of your main skill and drop a gathering.
It seems that because you have choices, it's a bad thing because you can't get everything. That's a somewhat weird reaction to me, unless you're talking of a child, but a lot of people do seem to share this reaction with you. I have a bit of trouble understanding this tho, I for one was happy that tradeskills finally got some stuff that weren't meant to be traded but would offer benefits to the people having those tradeskills, and not become worthless AGAIN like smithing/LWing/tailoring currently are. There's also people complaining about smithes getting good weapons easy, and that everyone should get them or those weapons should be nerfed or every melee will be forced to take smithing. But won't everyone have to take alchemy to get better potion effects too, and won't everyone have to take LW to get AP buffs?
In the end, by offering powerful perks to every tradeskill, you only offer a choice to everyone, you can enchant your rings, or you can AE buff AP, or you can get weapons free of dkp. None of these are actually needed, they offer small advantages, but they eventually even out.
I'm still surprised there is no word on a replacement for Crusader... or even a nerf to the current crusader so that its possible to implement something better. I'd like to not still be running strat for orbs at 70.
Honestly, I'd rather run strat sm solo at 70 for orbs, which would get you enough for 1-2crusader per run, than have to run the "new" strat SM to get Greater Righteous Orbs with a 3-5man group and share them ^^.
Biggest issue with it would be finding large brilliant shards I believe, since no one would get lvl 60 blues anymore unless you went into lower level instances.
Enchanting, just like every other professions, is probably not done yet anyway, they still have lots of content to finish(blade's edge, shadowmoon) and lot of stuff to add, like world drop epics/blues, rare mobs and such. Won't bother choosing my tradeskills before next year.
i'm actually pretty excited about the LW drums, myself. the weird thing is the profession that seems LEAST exciting in TBC is engineering...perhaps the pendulum is swinging too far in the other direction.
I have always been, and shall always remain, a Goblin Engineer! I've always envsioned my alterself a gun totin' bomb tossin' maniac (kinda like that Flintlocke fella) and uh... have kinda been disapointed by the results. Been stuck with a X-bow for over a year now, dunno when I last had cause to use a bomb except for amusin' things like goblin packs (hunter aoe :lol:) altho explody trap + sapper charge = hunter tank! Them gnomes get that there Shrink ray, and let me tell ya, it ALWAYS gets a laugh and actually is a nice little debuff!
Well now, here's what we're gettin' so far that I know of:
Both engy's are getting a +45 stam trinket, the gnomish one is an instant short CC tool, the goblin one has a 5 sec cast AND stuns the user - basically, they're just a big stamina trinket, except the gnome one can be usefull, whilst the ULTIMATE GOBLIN ENGINEERED WEAPON performs as expected, hey?
New teleporters for both, like as not them damn gnomes will get the one that's beter situated again, ha!
There's some sorta epic goblin/gnomish hats, the goblin ones provide resists to stuns/silences, the gnomish ones give you good stats that let ya KILL stuff better (er wait now, which branch is supposed ter be the violent one!?). The gnome hat stats are actually pretty decent (can see them here on alla) for everyday wear, but the goblin ones utterly suck 99% of the time.
By the Maker, the Critter Enlarger better be goblin only, why should gnomes get all the World Enlarger fun!?
Potion Injectors! Alas, they be Engy Only, these coulda been really nice for us.
The Mote Extractor + Ultra-Spectroscopic Detective Gogglers seem to be an attempt to let engys farm in a little different from everyone else.
Gnomes get a flame turret!
Tonks!
Nigh-Invulnerability Belt - 4000 (!) point 8 second shield every 5 minutes. 8 seconds of bliss in PvP!
Overall, I think gnomish comes out on top again, and compared to other profs, all an engy gets is a 45 stamina trinket, some novel gathering stuff, and a head start on DPS hats for gnomish. Compared to group buffs, head/leg enchants, gear upgrades that really are top of the line, engy is increasingly "just for fun" but still has a couple nice features for PvP.
I'm still surprised there is no word on a replacement for Crusader... or even a nerf to the current crusader so that its possible to implement something better. I'd like to not still be running strat for orbs at 70.
For one thing, you don't know the proc rate of Mongoose.
Second, I'm relatively sure that the 2% increased attack speed and ~4% crit Mongoose seems to give is going to beat 200 AP, especially as gear improves and 2% IAS scales while 200 AP remains static.
120 agi certainly won't be 4% crit at level 70. It's 26 / 1% at 60 already.
Don't forget about the crit cap too. AP has no cap.
Another thing is the healing factor on Crusader.
I know I certainly would get crusader instead of mongoose is M. is 10 times as expensive.
120 agi certainly won't be 4% crit at level 70. It's 26 / 1% at 60 already.
Don't forget about the crit cap too. AP has no cap.
Another thing is the healing factor on Crusader.
I know I certainly would get crusader instead of mongoose is M. is 10 times as expensive.
IIRC it's 33 crit per agility at 70. So 120 agility is 3.636.... Fine, I'm off by 0.3636...% crit. (For future reference, the "~" means "approximately", not "exactly").
And good luck getting a crit capped warrior in the expansion with the new critical rating system and 33 agi per crit.
The rating system is just as linear, our items are worth more so it will even out. Once you're decked out in T5 quality epics and have consumble +crit buffs on you, it should be close to the crit cap again. Of course we'll be far from the crit cap when we hit 70 in our nax epics but that's not comparable.
The rating system is just as linear, our items are worth more so it will even out. Once you're decked out in T5 quality epics and have consumble +crit buffs on you, it should be close to the crit cap again. Of course we'll be far from the crit cap when we hit 70 in our nax epics but that's not comparable.
Well, we are getting off-topic here. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think you are going to have much less crit in general, because the ilvl cost of critical rating is balanced 14 CSR = 1% crit at level 60, right? So at level 70, critical strike rating is the same cost, but you need more of it to get 1% crit. So the ilvl cost of 1% crit is effectively increased.
And with sockets and 3% Precision I think it'll be easier to avoid being crit capped.
Well forced is a big word, which is why you quoted it I guess, no one is forced to level it, but if you want to min max you'll get enchanting. Same deal with consumables, in theory no one has to farm consumables, yet you do when you raid. Well most people do. I dont really see a problem with it, if you don't want to get it, you don't, you'll have -30healing or -6stats, and it won't break your char. It's just that you will do 0.5% less dps at equal gear than an enchanter, or heal a tad bit worse. The profitable part has nothing to do with it really, engineering can be profitable in certain conditions(reflectors sold quite good when they introduced them, thorium widgets still sell for perfect DM runs every once in a while, it's not great but you can still make a bit of money).
Yeah thats excatly why I quoted it, its really hard to use a word like 'forced' when your talking about a game. But I think (at least for fairly hardcore minded people like myself) that maxing out our characters and making them the very best they can be at every role they can fill. (speaking as a druid I'd like to complain for a bit that thats bloody hard) Thus I will need to be an enchanter. If I'm trying to tank I need people to say "holy crap he has alot of health" or if I'm trying to heal I need people to notice my rejuves are ticking as high as the tree sitting next to me. So that 30 healing and 6 stats is very important to me, and I'll proabably level enchanting (again..ugh)
Originally Posted by Pyros
Also, the guild enchanter does not vanish, he will still have alll the good rare drop plans. If everyone in your guild is enchanting, it doesn't mean bosses will maically drop 25patterns each time they die. Actually in my guild, a lot of people are already enchanters so they can get nexus out of their used gear. They're also either herbalists to farm herbs for pots themselves or engineers to pvp. We still have guild enchanters, because most of the people who can disenchant don't have more than 60 in enchanting anyway, and even those with 300 still fight for the rare patterns that drop to be able to make money selling them. If everyone had 300enchanting, it wouldn't change the fact only a few of them would have the rare patterns.
If your guild as a whole gets enchanting, the only thing that happens is everyone can disenchant their own greens without sending them to the guild enchanter(annoying as hell) and provide mats for their enchants, but besides those personal ring enchants, they will still ask the guild enchanters for the rare cloak -10%threat enchant or whatever drops from Joe the last boss before Kaelthas.
Thats fair, I was thinking similar things when I posted what I did. Maybe what I'm thinking is that the great dkp wars between the two enchanters over the first +sub to cloak on the server wont be seen. Or maybe they will since those are the only two people that care about enhanting really.
Your proabably right, I cant really see how everyone having maxed enchating would change things much. Only possibly a decrease in profits for trainable/faction rep enchants. Maybe thats a good thing though, with the advent of jewelcrafting.
Originally Posted by Pyros
Why not, I often do it with mining and herbalism, when I have 4-5epics laying in my bank, I drop one, train enchanting, DE them, then level back my gathering skill. Sure it will take more time, but it's not impossible to do at 70 when you can farm most instances for greens in a matter of minutes. Sure it's annoying on a whole another level, but if you're such a perfectionist that you can't live without 2minor enchants, then why not do it. Would take 2-3days at most if you play a lot, and if you're willing to do it, you probably play a lot. If not, just take enchanting as one of your main skill and drop a gathering.
I also have been doing this over the past year. In fact right now my herbing is in the 200's because I just recently dropped disenchating again. I just dont think that doing the same will be economically viable for most of the raiding community in TBC. As it is right now, i kinda like the rotations, its like... casting an enormous spell that requires several days of farming reagents to complete, and on a cooldown decided entierly by how much free time I have.
neat huh? or maybe im just crazy. it's possible.
Originally Posted by Pyros
It seems that because you have choices, it's a bad thing because you can't get everything. That's a somewhat weird reaction to me, unless you're talking of a child, but a lot of people do seem to share this reaction with you. I have a bit of trouble understanding this tho, I for one was happy that tradeskills finally got some stuff that weren't meant to be traded but would offer benefits to the people having those tradeskills, and not become worthless AGAIN like smithing/LWing/tailoring currently are. There's also people complaining about smithes getting good weapons easy, and that everyone should get them or those weapons should be nerfed or every melee will be forced to take smithing. But won't everyone have to take alchemy to get better potion effects too, and won't everyone have to take LW to get AP buffs?
In the end, by offering powerful perks to every tradeskill, you only offer a choice to everyone, you can enchant your rings, or you can AE buff AP, or you can get weapons free of dkp. None of these are actually needed, they offer small advantages, but they eventually even out.
Thats totally true, and something I didnt think about much. I am skeptical that the benefits from having LW'ing will out way that of enchanting however. But this may by just the cynical "why do I still have leatherworking" leatherworker in me.
Anyway the only problem I can see with all of the crafting professions having specfic advantages is that more people will take up double crafting, and we will all be farming mobs to earn money to buy Mats that doent exist (not happening I know. That was just a doomsday what if there)
So... maybe we can expect the norm for raiders professions to be double crafting? and maybe raiders alts professions to be double gathering?
edited for quotez
\"Listen, I\'m trying to have a serious conversation about ferret bras and you are not listening\"
11/24/06, 6:55 PM
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