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08/29/06, 4:08 PM
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#31
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Glass Joe
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I'd like to see the shot cycle concept extended and decoupled from the Aimed Shot timer and cooldown. The cycle idea is a clever mechanic that emphasizes timing and synchronization. (I’d even argue that the shot cycle is the secondary combat system for the raiding hunter – an innovative update to the Focus bar.) However, Aimed Shot cycles are a poor way of implementing cycles because they limit both cycle and itemization diversity.
Why not move Aimed Shot to the pyroblast camp, where it is only viable as an opener, and replace its dps in raid situations with synergistic, timing-based combinations of other abilities? Perhaps Improved Arcane Shot could give a damage bonus that depends on when during the Auto-Shot timer it is fired. For example, given a hypothetical 3-second Auto-Shot timer, give a 0% bonus if Arcane is fired at the exact same time as Auto, and a 50% bonus if Arcane is fired at the halfway mark, 1.5 seconds after Auto. Scale linearly between these points, similar to troll berserking, and you have a mechanic that allows dps to scale effectively in raids without overwhelming pvp balance.
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08/29/06, 4:39 PM
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#32
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Von Kaiser
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I've been thinking that if they added a few more shots that were tied to the cooldown of AimedShot or MultiShot it would do the trick. The problem is that hunters don't have a huge selection of skills to use when we're purely DPSing. Since the only alternative to AimedShot is an instant that isn't meant to yield high DPS, we get too tied down to it and consequently that's where the dependence on weapon speeds comes in.
Really, if there were an alternative to AimedShot that was like 1.5 second cast (did less damage than Aimed of course) and had some tasty modifiers/mechanics on it- I'd see that being a perfect way to cut out a weapon speed dependency.
Then I'd like to see an alternative to Multi-Shot (another shot being on the same cooldown). Something that would yield higher damage and/or apply some debuff on a single target- for the cases when you shouldn't be AEing and burning down one mob.
Definitely interested in seeing what hunters get ;)
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Dude, don't fuck up the rotation
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08/29/06, 4:51 PM
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#33
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Bald Bull
Tauren Warrior
Kil'Jaeden
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If aimed shot is on X number of shots per second and based on weapon skill slower will be better even if autoshot is seperated from it entirely.
The only immediate solution to the retarded mechanics atm would be to make aimed shot like eviscerate and decouple it from your weapon.
QQ I guess... QQ
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08/29/06, 4:59 PM
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#34
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Von Kaiser
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I'm apalled to see people seriously suggesting that aimed shot do 200%+ weapon damage. Didn't we learn with the original version of Mortal Strike that % bonuses on hard hitting physical attacks is a TERRIBLE idea with the rate gear scales in this game?
The current form of aimed shot can take off 50% or more of the life of most cloth users. If they doubled the damage of it, we'd be in 1 shot land. I seriously doubt that hunters believe they should be able to 1 shot people with aimed shots.
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08/29/06, 5:03 PM
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#35
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KINDOFABIGDEAL
Night Elf Hunter
Ner'zhul
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Originally Posted by altairian
I'm apalled to see people seriously suggesting that aimed shot do 200%+ weapon damage. Didn't we learn with the original version of Mortal Strike that % bonuses on hard hitting physical attacks is a TERRIBLE idea with the rate gear scales in this game?
The current form of aimed shot can take off 50% or more of the life of most cloth users. If they doubled the damage of it, we'd be in 1 shot land. I seriously doubt that hunters believe they should be able to 1 shot people with aimed shots.
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backstab and ambush?
the assumption would also be that it's not doing double its current damage, but double some other amount of damage - it's currently weapon damage + extra damage, and the suggestion is that it be multiplicative rather than just +dmg.
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08/29/06, 5:03 PM
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#36
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Stormscale
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Originally Posted by altairian
I'm apalled to see people seriously suggesting that aimed shot do 200%+ weapon damage. Didn't we learn with the original version of Mortal Strike that % bonuses on hard hitting physical attacks is a TERRIBLE idea with the rate gear scales in this game?
The current form of aimed shot can take off 50% or more of the life of most cloth users. If they doubled the damage of it, we'd be in 1 shot land. I seriously doubt that hunters believe they should be able to 1 shot people with aimed shots.
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200% weapon damage would be less than aimed shot does today in most cases. Right now it's weapon damage(normalized) + 600.. unless you have some very insane gear, 200% weapon damage will be less than that.
What I'd like to see is aimed shot be an opener vs. cc'd targets and not something you spam. Hunters should be using instants to dps with like arcane shot and multi-shot, rather than doing the insane cycle dance. Of course arcane shot is horrid so nobody uses it.
Aimed shot needs a cooldown, a slight nerf in top possible damage, but higher average damage. Right now if aimed doesn't crit, it was a complete waste in pvp. If it does crit, it's gg. A slight nerf to base damage (200% is a nerf) with a + to crit with aimed shot talent would make it work nicely. Coupled with a cooldown, say 1 minute.
Edit: and the reason I'm saying it should just be a % of weapon damage (whatever that % is), is so that the thing scales very linearly with gear. Right now aimed hits a bit harder with really good gear, but the bulk of the damage is in the base 600.
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08/29/06, 5:13 PM
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#37
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Hunter
Lightning's Blade
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Originally Posted by KalelScilla
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Originally Posted by altairian
I'm apalled to see people seriously suggesting that aimed shot do 200%+ weapon damage. Didn't we learn with the original version of Mortal Strike that % bonuses on hard hitting physical attacks is a TERRIBLE idea with the rate gear scales in this game?
The current form of aimed shot can take off 50% or more of the life of most cloth users. If they doubled the damage of it, we'd be in 1 shot land. I seriously doubt that hunters believe they should be able to 1 shot people with aimed shots.
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200% weapon damage would be less than aimed shot does today in most cases. Right now it's weapon damage(normalized) + 600.. unless you have some very insane gear, 200% weapon damage will be less than that.
What I'd like to see is aimed shot be an opener vs. cc'd targets and not something you spam. Hunters should be using instants to dps with like arcane shot and multi-shot, rather than doing the insane cycle dance. Of course arcane shot is horrid so nobody uses it.
Aimed shot needs a cooldown, a slight nerf in top possible damage, but higher average damage. Right now if aimed doesn't crit, it was a complete waste in pvp. If it does crit, it's gg. A slight nerf to base damage (200% is a nerf) with a + to crit with aimed shot talent would make it work nicely. Coupled with a cooldown, say 1 minute.
Edit: and the reason I'm saying it should just be a % of weapon damage (whatever that % is), is so that the thing scales very linearly with gear. Right now aimed hits a bit harder with really good gear, but the bulk of the damage is in the base 600.
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I wouldn't mind making aimed shot basically PvP only like that as long as they add some other instant shot or something for PvE. Either buff arcane shot or add in a new shot of some type.
Who knows, maybe that's what they have in mind. I saw a new spell called "Venom Shot" that looked like arcane shot but with nature damage. http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/spells/29636-.html
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08/29/06, 5:14 PM
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#38
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by KalelScilla
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Originally Posted by altairian
I'm apalled to see people seriously suggesting that aimed shot do 200%+ weapon damage. Didn't we learn with the original version of Mortal Strike that % bonuses on hard hitting physical attacks is a TERRIBLE idea with the rate gear scales in this game?
The current form of aimed shot can take off 50% or more of the life of most cloth users. If they doubled the damage of it, we'd be in 1 shot land. I seriously doubt that hunters believe they should be able to 1 shot people with aimed shots.
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200% weapon damage would be less than aimed shot does today in most cases. Right now it's weapon damage(normalized) + 600.. unless you have some very insane gear, 200% weapon damage will be less than that.
What I'd like to see is aimed shot be an opener vs. cc'd targets and not something you spam. Hunters should be using instants to dps with like arcane shot and multi-shot, rather than doing the insane cycle dance. Of course arcane shot is horrid so nobody uses it.
Aimed shot needs a cooldown, a slight nerf in top possible damage, but higher average damage. Right now if aimed doesn't crit, it was a complete waste in pvp. If it does crit, it's gg. A slight nerf to base damage (200% is a nerf) with a + to crit with aimed shot talent would make it work nicely. Coupled with a cooldown, say 1 minute.
Edit: and the reason I'm saying it should just be a % of weapon damage (whatever that % is), is so that the thing scales very linearly with gear. Right now aimed hits a bit harder with really good gear, but the bulk of the damage is in the base 600.
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Your very own suggestion was 200% weapon damage + 250. Now I'm not a hunter expert, but I'm pretty sure hunter autoshot has listed damage somewhere in the 400-500+ range with high level epics, so doubling a 500 shot then adding 250 would be significantly larger than the 600 bonus on the current aimed shot. And any new gear you get would see double the benefit on that aimed shot.
I really don't think modifying hunter's hardest hitting attack to potentially hit harder is the answer.
Also in regard's to backstab and ambush, I wouldn't really call daggers "hard hitting" ;)
It takes some serious gear and/or luck to get an ambush to hit as hard as a hunter using bloodseeker can crit his aimed shots (although I suppose in a low gear situation a 200% bonus would be less than the current 600), and there's that pesky requirement to be standing behind someone and be in melee range to ambush.
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08/29/06, 5:39 PM
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#39
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Von Kaiser
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What about something like:
1) Eliminate "banked" autoshots.* Shot timer is reset when aimed shot fires. They inherently skew cycle damage towards weapons with hasted speeds > (aimed shot cast time) which is the very slowest of slow weapons, and have a surprisingly large impact on both burst damage (aimed is effectively 200% now...just that a crit on 1 doesn't necessarily mean you crit on both, which would be the case if aimed itself was 200% weapon damage) and sustained damage (where fast weapons take it in the shorts by lost autoshot time).
2) Have "aimed shot" also grant a buff, where subsequent shots gain some % of weapon damage, 10-20%. Have it last much longer than the aimed shot cooldown, but lost when you move. This is to compensate the loss of the banked shot in cycle dps, and possibly boost hunters sustained damage back into the range of the more pure dps classes.
You'd still have optimal speeds, where clipped or unclipped cycles would yield peak DPS, but I don't think that's what needs to be eliminated. When I hop on my hunter alt, that's alot of what makes the class feel unique and enjoyable, the fact that my DPS is highly dependant on my timing and rhythm, as opposed to just mashing buttons as fast or faster than the next guy (and in the more complex scenarios, the proper order).
*For scaling reasons, you'd also perhaps want to look at how aimed shot damage is calculated. Possibly a reduction in aimed shot cast time to 2.5 or a more complex scaling based off of unhasted weapon + AP + ammo + scope DPS where you're getting a net return on your time...i.e. 3 seconds to cast, and gaining effectively 3.5 or 4 seconds worth of damage.
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08/29/06, 5:45 PM
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#40
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by altairian
Your very own suggestion was 200% weapon damage + 250. Now I'm not a hunter expert, but I'm pretty sure hunter autoshot has listed damage somewhere in the 400-500+ range with high level epics, so doubling a 500 shot then adding 250 would be significantly larger than the 600 bonus on the current aimed shot. And any new gear you get would see double the benefit on that aimed shot.
I really don't think modifying hunter's hardest hitting attack to potentially hit harder is the answer.
Also in regard's to backstab and ambush, I wouldn't really call daggers "hard hitting" ;)
It takes some serious gear and/or luck to get an ambush to hit as hard as a hunter using bloodseeker can crit his aimed shots (although I suppose in a low gear situation a 200% bonus would be less than the current 600), and there's that pesky requirement to be standing behind someone and be in melee range to ambush.
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Altairian, there's a huge difference 'tween damage range on one's paper doll, and weapon damage.
If I may direct your attention to:
Ashjre'thul, Crossbow of Smiting
Binds when picked up
Crossbow
124 - 186 Damage Speed 3.40
(45.6 damage per second)
+7 Stamina
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 60
Equip: +36 ranged Attack Power.
Notice the "124-186 damage" thingy? That's weapon damage. 200% + 250 of Ashjre'thul = 498 - 622. That's actually a huge nerf to what aimshot currently is, as I can do 1k non-crit on fully sundered mobs with Rhok (700 or so on mail in pvp).
And dagger rogues aren't hard hitting? There's a rogue in my guild who's done 2.1k backstab crits in PvE. If he could somehow stealth and do ambush, he'd crit for a metric shitton. Granted, that's fully raidbuffed and a mob w/ no armor, but he can murder clothies w/ ambush + bs.
There's isn't much of a difference in aimshot damage from Bloodseeker + rank 11/Tier 1, and Ashjre'thul + Tier 2.5/3. It's powerful on the low gear end, and then proceeds to scale poorly with gear.
If Blizz can't do something decent w/ hunter talents/skills in TBC, the warrior I'm levelling will become my new main. But I don't want to shelve the hunter I spent so much time/effort on.
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08/29/06, 5:48 PM
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#41
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Super Macho Man
<>
Orc Shaman
No WoW Account
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maxian, in every other tooltip in the game, weapon damage refers to paper doll damage range. That's why the 200% figure you threw out was jumped on.
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Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
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08/29/06, 5:54 PM
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#42
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Glass Joe
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Hmm, I've never really noticed that. I always knew weapon damage as the actually damage range on the weapon, which is accurate, AFAIK.
And if I came off sorta... bitchy or something, that was not intended.
<3
Edit:
Ack, I've been pwnt. I never pay much attention to tooltip wordings usually. But Blizz has a history of making tooltips with either poor wordings, or outright inaccuracies. "Weapon damage" really should refer to the actually item itself, and something else should be used for "(weapon damage + AP x speed)", for clarity's sake.
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08/29/06, 5:55 PM
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#43
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Stormscale
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So make it 150%. 125%. Whatever. The point is the mechanic change, not the actual %. I'd support a nerf to potential damage as long as we get a +crit talent such that average damage stays about the same or goes up some, but it's not "omg I crit you die in 2 hits", it's a fairly often-critting attack that doesn't take 1/2 your life.
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08/29/06, 5:57 PM
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#44
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
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Something must be done. Since aimed shot is a huge source of damage and it seems to scale horribly with gear progression. Autoshot scaling seems decent enough, but I don't aimed for much more damage than I did with blues/greens and bloodseeker. Maybe 200-300 more with ash and 1450 AP in raid. It's interesting to play a class that needs some attention to max dps, but if the mechanics makes the class suffer so much from itemisation as it currently is, they have to fix it somehow. I like aimed shot as a spell, removing it completely would be a bit dull, but as above posters mentioned it would be cool to boost it to a longer cooldown high damage spell. I really like the idea of having some tricks up my sleeve that would increase dps an assload for a short amount of time (think recklessness, adrenaline rush, blade flurry, damage trinkets/arcane power etc). As it is now i just activate the rather weak rapid fire when the RL yells "all out dps ffs".
A little OT here, I saw a new enchant list from BC earlier today and noticed an enchant which basically was crusader but with agility and an attack speed increase. I got very excited about it until i noticed that it was a melee weapon enchant. I browsed some more in the list and found nothing of new scopes or ranged weapon enchants. I hope we don't get shafted with that in BC again. :(
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I am Bender, please insert girder
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08/29/06, 5:57 PM
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#45
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Super Macho Man
<>
Orc Shaman
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by maxian
Hmm, I've never really noticed that. I always knew weapon damage as the actually damage range on the weapon, which is accurate, AFAIK.
And if I came off sorta... bitchy or something, that was not intended.
<3
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Not accurate at all. Sinister Strike is "in addition to your normal weapon damage", weapon damage referring to normalized weapon damage (damage range + AP/14*norm). Mortal Strike is "deals weapon damage plus 160" and again weapon damage refers to normalized weapon damage. I can't think of a single tooltip where weapon damage *doesn't* refer to either paper doll weapon damage range or normalized weapon damage range - I can't think of any, specifically, which refer to weapon tooltip damage range as "weapon damage".
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Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
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