Off topic - it's funny that you can tell who the forum posters are who are sitting around bored at work hitting 'refresh' to see if something new has gotten posted in the last 90 seconds. =)
I would never do such a thing.
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
God knows who ability, but sounds like something for pet or hunter: Acidic Fang - dmg and armor reducer, stacks up to 3500 http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/spells/29901-.html
there's also a low level version, Acidic Splash, so I think it's part of a new set of abilities for someone...
Felguard Pet ability: Avoidance - pet gets 50% chance to avoid AOE http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/spells/32234-.html
an example of something that should be 100% for pve, and 0% for pvp, quite frankly, so you end up with something kinda stupid. Also possible general pet ability, one can hope!
Crystal Strike - I dunno what this is, but it requires level 70, so it doesn't look like a mob skill. Might be for rogues, but it's arcane damage, so I doubt it. http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/spells/29765-.html
Dark Shriek - Again, no idea, level 70 pet skill would be my guess, there were 2 ranks listed, one for level 20 and one for level 70, this is the level 70 one, AoE 450-751 shadow damage, just doing by the name I'd think it's a bird skill? http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/spells/29298-.html
Tracker's Ferocity - these next 3 sound like ours, what with the tracking and all, but are 10 ap, 5 int and 5 stam buffs, might be rank 1 of something useful later http://www.curse-gaming.com/en/wow/spells/30848-.html
Yea I thought the same thing; the nature shot appears to be the Verdant Keeper's Aim proc, and the shadow one is...er, you know I have no idea which bow/gun etc procs a shadow proc. Hurricane is a frost proc?
When I first saw it I was kinda hoping it was something along the lines of what EQ rangers had; a self buff that gave a chance on ranged attack to proc a bit of extra damage. In that way it would require maintenance (IE buffing yourself with it, and probably on a short timer, so you do have to refresh a bit) and wouldn't be overpowered, except perhaps for the resulting burst that could result in it procing off of say, auto shot with the dreaded trio in pvp.
I don't really see how people are saying that aimed/multi/auto in a row are overpowered. The chance that all three of them are critting is extremely low, and there are checks and balances. IE your shots are going to hit hard with MM spec but the change to crit is lowered, while with survival you can crit more but they'll hit for slightly less.
Compared to things I've seen other classes do in pvp, it's just desserts, but of course you never hear those classes whining about their omgwtf crits etc in a pvp setting.
I really don't want to see aimed shot being totally scraped, but I do realize there is a dire need for something else to fill the gap.
The one thing that I found interesting was a EU hunter's suggestion, that we build up a type of "combo point" system determined upon how long we've been fighting a mob and not moving. IE if you've been sitting in one place long enough you've gotten time to study your opponent, so maybe you can activate a ranged speed attack, or some extra RAP, but as soon as you move the bonus is lost. The idea is kinda nice, except for those fights where you end up having to be mobile. The only downside was that they did take FD into account, and it would remove the buffs. And given my penchant (and most other hunters) for proactive FDing, this would be pretty annoying on any aggro intensive fight.
Yes I come from EQ and I can see a few things that wouldn't be bad if they copied over to here. Maybe an endurance type of a bar, that we build up over time and then we can activate certain "disciplines". And no I'm not talking about the exact EQ endurance bar because that is crap, but one that builds up sorta like rage, except slower, and then allows you to activate. Considering fights in pvp are rather short, a hunter would never be active against a target long enough for the "endurance" to build up, (and you could even go so far as to make it so when combat drops or you lose your target, the endurance dissipates, ala combo points) but in end game pve this could be a considerable boost to dps.
The other things that I liked was a ranged attack arrow that reduced threat, (similar to jolt in EQ) and have you ever been attacked by the dwarven lookouts in Searing Gorge? They have the attack "Piercing Shot" which reduces AC, that I think would be fabulous for hunters.
Talking with some guildmates we were all curious why the hunter talents weren't up, and I remarked (as did many on this board) that probably their ultimate worry was an LR + RWS build, which continuously scales to unheard of proportions. I'm actually kind of excited to where they can take this but I won't hold my breath.
I think reaching level 70 they should put back the 20% MS talent back in (make it further into marksman tree so you have to be absolutely dedicated to that spec) as well as making aimed shot a trainable skill, instead of a talent. (Which annoys me to no end.)
Whew, I am long winded. Suffice to say, I am quite curious to see what they do to the hunter class. Despite the aimed shot/multi/auto combo, hunters are kinda dead in the water when it comes to most other stuff. That one trick we have that pisses off other classes has really left us hurting in terms of other areas. QQ some more I guess ><
Yea I thought the same thing; the nature shot appears to be the Verdant Keeper's Aim proc, and the shadow one is...er, you know I have no idea which bow/gun etc procs a shadow proc. Hurricane is a frost proc?
Heartseeking Crossbow and Dark Iron Rifle have a shadow damage proc.
The one thing that I found interesting was a EU hunter's suggestion, that we build up a type of "combo point" system determined upon how long we've been fighting a mob and not moving. IE if you've been sitting in one place long enough you've gotten time to study your opponent, so maybe you can activate a ranged speed attack, or some extra RAP, but as soon as you move the bonus is lost. The idea is kinda nice, except for those fights where you end up having to be mobile. The only downside was that they did take FD into account, and it would remove the buffs. And given my penchant (and most other hunters) for proactive FDing, this would be pretty annoying on any aggro intensive fight.
My major gripes with this were the "Builds up while standing still" part, and the "Total removal upon Feign Death / exiting combat" part. It would certainly be an interesting system, but seeing as most encounters seem to introduce new dynamics, limiting the system to only be usable while standing still... it just seems counter-productive.
I do think the idea has its merits though, and allows for different damage scaling in PvE and PvP combat.
On its own, I wouldn't like a ranged version of Feint. It would possibly be more interesting if combined with the above, using WoW-Jolt instead of Feign Death to avoid losing damage boost. As it stands, threat isn't really a problem in end-game for hunters.
I really hope they agree with us that the current damage system for hunters is flawed; there are several things that points in that direction, so one can hope. I do believe (albeit possibly as a desperate hope) that they had talents and skills planned, but had to revisit them due to new information; as opposed to just being last just because.
I'm guessing I'll be spending some time theorycrafting when the hunter changes do become official :P
Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
Yea it was why I tried to modify the hunter's suggestion with something I thought made more sense.
A rage type of bar that built up more slowly, and had more to do with time spent on that target/inside combat than standing still. For instance:
Say they gave us...6 disciplines, at varying costs of endurance. A bar of endurance would be 100 points, and it would take awhile to build it up.
We'll use Twin Emps as an example since it's a nice rounded number of a timed fight. 15 minutes.
Say, it takes 3 minutes to build up 35 endurance. With 6 disciplines, there might be 1 that is 35 endurance, 2 at 45 endurance, 2 at 60 endurance, 1 at 80 endurance. They are on different timers, so say, activating the 1 at 35 endurance also cooldowns the one at 80 endurance, that way the ability to use some of the better abilities throughout the fight would be impossible; you'd have to pick and choose.
So, at 35 endurance, you activate the first discipline. Your 35 endurance and 80 endurance discipline are now cooldown'd, for whatever amount of time Blizz should decide. The endurance bar is reset to zero, the ability you've picked is activated for however long, and then vanishes.
It takes another 3 minutes to get 35 endurance, but your 35 endurance is cooldown so now you wait. You can choose to activate the 45 endurance one, but depending on which it is it would also cooldown one of the 60 endurance abilities, so careful decision making would be implemented. Activate the next one, and then wait for either 45 endurance for that one, or 60 endurance for the other one.
FDing and moving would not reset it, but either, main target dying (the twin emps) or being removed from combat for a long period of time than an FD would. (IE you can FD without adverse affects but being out of combat from the encounter being over resets it.)
There would have to be a few tweaks, such that sometimes in pvp you can get bugged or just be on several npcs threat lists (in AV) and not be able to drop endurance, but if they did it so main target dying wiped the slate, it would be impossible to activate these abilities in a pvp type of setting.
I think it could be nice, and it could work.
Conversely, they could just give us separate rulesets for pvp and pve and then buff us in pve without any adverse effects to pvp. BUT!
Short of tying abilities to weapon speed and dps which they should have done, oh I dunno, back in beta when this stuff was already an obvious problem, there really is no way to 'simply' fix the problem. If Aimed shot were simply a 'does 3x damage, takes 2x weapon speed to fire, recast is 10x weapon speed, mana cost is 100x weapon speed ' ability there woud be no problem. Multishot should simply be ".1 second cast, deals 150% damage split amongst up to 3 targets, recast is 5x weapon speed, mana cost is 100x weapon speed"
The one thing that I found interesting was a EU hunter's suggestion, that we build up a type of "combo point" system determined upon how long we've been fighting a mob and not moving. IE if you've been sitting in one place long enough you've gotten time to study your opponent, so maybe you can activate a ranged speed attack, or some extra RAP, but as soon as you move the bonus is lost.
As far as I remember this system was used in the early alpha/beta days when hunters had focus instead of mana and it only build up when you didn't move. They've discarded the idea because the thought that you only could do damage when you stood still didn't sound appealing to them. I guess they won't go back to that (though they've also said that they wanted to make pets more viable and then gave up when they released the info about the tier 3 armor set bonus).
Yea it was why I tried to modify the hunter's suggestion with something I thought made more sense.
A rage type of bar that built up more slowly, and had more to do with time spent on that target/inside combat than standing still. For instance:
Say they gave us...6 disciplines, at varying costs of endurance. A bar of endurance would be 100 points, and it would take awhile to build it up.
We'll use Twin Emps as an example since it's a nice rounded number of a timed fight. 15 minutes.
Say, it takes 3 minutes to build up 35 endurance. With 6 disciplines, there might be 1 that is 35 endurance, 2 at 45 endurance, 2 at 60 endurance, 1 at 80 endurance. They are on different timers, so say, activating the 1 at 35 endurance also cooldowns the one at 80 endurance, that way the ability to use some of the better abilities throughout the fight would be impossible; you'd have to pick and choose.
So, at 35 endurance, you activate the first discipline. Your 35 endurance and 80 endurance discipline are now cooldown'd, for whatever amount of time Blizz should decide. The endurance bar is reset to zero, the ability you've picked is activated for however long, and then vanishes.
It takes another 3 minutes to get 35 endurance, but your 35 endurance is cooldown so now you wait. You can choose to activate the 45 endurance one, but depending on which it is it would also cooldown one of the 60 endurance abilities, so careful decision making would be implemented. Activate the next one, and then wait for either 45 endurance for that one, or 60 endurance for the other one.
FDing and moving would not reset it, but either, main target dying (the twin emps) or being removed from combat for a long period of time than an FD would. (IE you can FD without adverse affects but being out of combat from the encounter being over resets it.)
There would have to be a few tweaks, such that sometimes in pvp you can get bugged or just be on several npcs threat lists (in AV) and not be able to drop endurance, but if they did it so main target dying wiped the slate, it would be impossible to activate these abilities in a pvp type of setting.
I think it could be nice, and it could work.
Conversely, they could just give us separate rulesets for pvp and pve and then buff us in pve without any adverse effects to pvp. BUT!
Yeah they had something called "focus" in beta similiar to this I believe.
Since more and more encounters seem to have us moving around, the "building up damage while standing still" mechanic wouldn't be ideal. However, I think a similiar concept of an ability that allows us to build up damage over time would be a nice way to improve our PvE damage without affecting our PvP damage.
I was thinking of a 41 point marksmen tree talent that's similiar to the Ouro trinket (Gom Jabbar?) increasing either our attack power or direct damage % (more scalable that way) with certain limitations.
In order for this ability to proc, you'd have to be attacking the same target for more than 10 seconds or so. You can't just be "in combat" for 10 seconds, you have to be autoshotting. If you change targets the proc and bonus would be lost. For example, once this ability procs, it increases your attack power by 80 every 2 seconds for 20 seconds or something similiar.
Edit: Once the proc goes up, even if you have to repostition you'll still benefit as long as you don't change targets
I don't think we will see a huge rewrite where they do away with mana, anything that radical would cause a catastrophic level of forum drama. Personally, I'm willing to embrace large changes, but I'm sure many hunters are not, and thus the Blizz devs will be held back. I really like many of these ideas, but I suspect y'all are being too imaginitive.
I do have to say any method of building up DPS by standing still is probably a bad idea, our DPS is more sustainable while running around than any other class, that is one of our strengths. When you see hunters topping the damage meters, it's usually because:
1) multishot was hitting adds, or
2) fear or some other debuff messed people up closer than 41 yards, or
3) the encounter makes people run around a lot, or
4) the encounter is very agro sensitive
And with respect to being over powered, at level 70 barring major changes, I can look forward to nearly 2k RAP unbuffed and 40-50% crit, and that's just what I think an average lvl 70 hunter can push out with lvl 70 blues. I already crit enough to wipe out non-(warlock or very epic) clothies with 1 aimed/multi combo very reliably, and it's likely to get worse. Hell, I've melee'd down blue warriors, hopefully they were prot specced. I know I'm overpowered in PvP, and it's holding the devs back from letting us be stronger in PvE.
Edit: I feel I should add that, despite usually being #1 in kills in BG's, I'm a lousy PvPer. All I really have to do is follow a couple other folks on whatever objective needs fulfilling, and then hang back and obliterate hordies. So my class mechanic easily overcomes my lazy PvP skills.
Another idea I had was that they would introduce a buff/combo system to shots.
Example: You start the fight with "practice shots". This basically gives you eight seconds to place three auto shots on a target. The auto shots only do ~80% damage. Once you've hit the mob three times the mob gets a debuff from the hunter (like the "Badge of the Swarmguard" debuff) that allows him to use "prediction shots" that allow the hunter to hit the target five times with auto shots that deal ~130% damage. Once that is over the hunter can chose to use a finishing shot if the target is below 20% health or to use another round of "prediction shots" or another shot time (elemental shots?). Of course once you'd change targets you'd have to start over again at the "Practice Shots".
As has been pointed out the problem with this, as with most other good ideas is, that it would need a large rework of the hunter class. And I'm pretty sure that the dev's don't really want to do that.
had more to do with time spent on that target/inside combat than standing still.
Quoted the relevant part of my post hehe ^_^
That was what I said earlier. The standing still idea makes no sense considering as fights and tactics evolve you end up being more and more mobile. Heck even in purely standard pewpew situations I'd still end up moving, either due to tank placement, mob overaggroing on someone else, LOS issues if they're tanking in a corner, etc...
Something that worked along the lines of gaining bonuses as if you're "studying" your opponent.
Do I think they'll do it? Not really. But tbh other than separate rulesets a rework of our mechanics would go a long way to evening out the balance without becoming overpowered in areas that it matters. Anyone who yells about a hunter doing dps in the progression sense should be flayed alive really. Didn't DnT partially credit the rogue rework to their eventual 4H kill? Well, now your hunters do more dps too, and they haven't gotten any stronger in pvp, AND they aren't stepping on rogue toes when it comes to dps.
It just seems like a win-win-win situation to me; who would be against that?
I can look forward to nearly 2k RAP unbuffed and 40-50% crit
2k RAP yes, 40-50% crit no.
You'll probably need around 65 agility for each %crit at lvl 70 so your crit contribution from agi is going to drop by around 2%.
Then you need to consider the change from +1% crit & hit items to +hit/crit rating items, which is going to mean your old items give you less crit/hit at lvl 70 than they do now.
I suspect you'll end up exactly where you are now - around 25-30% - after absorbing an additional tier of items.
Incidentally although I think I understand the implications I'm not really too sure of exactly how the +hit/crit rating will work - can anyone elaborate? And won't it be incredibly hard for your average "noob" to understand?
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,
I don't see why everyone assumes that current itemization of giving items +1% chance to critical will change.
I guess the logical reason why is that at some point it does need to change.
If you look at the current trend - going from say 16% crit change as a new 60, to 21-22% in DM blues, 25% in MC gear and 30% in current stuff - and then extrapolate - as Rob said 40-50% crit would be expected at level 70.
Maybe not a problem right away but in the next couple of tiers of gear after that it would seem very unwieldy to have crit chance greater than hit chance - i.e. above 50%.
Gamebreaking? Not really but the implications for PvP, which Blizz seems determined to balance for, are fairly powerful.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
<Zyla> If there's gonna be a dick in the room besides my own, i'd rather it have to be my brother's. You know that kinda sounds bad all typed out like that,
If BC does not inherantly produce a massive gain in HP I will be shocked. PvP is a watchword at Blizz and even with some tempering they are still unwilling to make alternate rulesets. If mudflation reigns (oh, and it shall) then there really is no way to prevent the 1-2 shot PvP without a *big* HP increase really.
We'll see, a lot of focus seems to be going into disorientates, stuns, bleeds, and other effects but in the end... I am not yet sold on the situational stuff. I hope to be proven wrong of course.
I don't see why everyone assumes that current itemization of giving items +1% chance to critical will change.
I guess the logical reason why is that at some point it does need to change.
If you look at the current trend - going from say 16% crit change as a new 60, to 21-22% in DM blues, 25% in MC gear and 30% in current stuff - and then extrapolate - as Rob said 40-50% crit would be expected at level 70.
Maybe not a problem right away but in the next couple of tiers of gear after that it would seem very unwieldy to have crit chance greater than hit chance - i.e. above 50%.
Gamebreaking? Not really but the implications for PvP, which Blizz seems determined to balance for, are fairly powerful.
Another possibility is they might cheese out and put a hard cap on ranged crit chance at 42% or something.
I can look forward to nearly 2k RAP unbuffed and 40-50% crit
2k RAP yes, 40-50% crit no.
You'll probably need around 65 agility for each %crit at lvl 70 so your crit contribution from agi is going to drop by around 2%.
Then you need to consider the change from +1% crit & hit items to +hit/crit rating items, which is going to mean your old items give you less crit/hit at lvl 70 than they do now.
I suspect you'll end up exactly where you are now - around 25-30% - after absorbing an additional tier of items.
Incidentally although I think I understand the implications I'm not really too sure of exactly how the +hit/crit rating will work - can anyone elaborate? And won't it be incredibly hard for your average "noob" to understand?
With a LR build I was able to get a bt over 30 crit (in old AQ40 gear!) before BoK + mongoose almost let me keep up with rogues.
I'm also assuming, which I didn't mention, that the gear at level 70 will be designed by the guys that have learned from the past mistakes. The new hunter blues/epics introduced to ZG/AQ20 a couple months ago are superbly balanced in stats and literally just shy (probably <10 DPS) of MC gear as far as our DPS is concerned, and if level 70 blues follow that pattern, those items will significantly improve on silly AQ gear. Socketted items, new talents, new epix, will even further favor more crittage.
OTOH, if resilience is an anti-crit stat, which seems like a likely tool to basically revoke 10 crit off of every physical dps (hunters won't be the only ones pushing 50% crit!), then everything is back to normal. Unless, of course, a warrior has "sunder resiliance" stacked on ya 5 times, then you are doomed!
Hmm, which would make resilience effectively a pvp only stat, essentially reducing our ability to do pvp dps... Err, I haven't seen anything official on resilence, and now I've intrigued myself as to the potential, has anyone got some solid info on it? :D
Then you need to consider the change from +1% crit & hit items to +hit/crit rating items, which is going to mean your old items give you less crit/hit at lvl 70 than they do now.
They're changing it from a percent base to some kind of rating? Just curious, where'd you see that?
08/30/06, 6:04 PM
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