I'm trying to figure out the difference in 2 specific talents. Let's start with the fact that my second character is a female human paladin named suzanne. I want to see the amount of damage and healing difference between improved sancitity aura and holy guidance. Please refer to this talent build : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...10000012000000 .
Then let's use this gear setup : http://ctprofiles.net/72800 (click on tier 3 profile)

With this combination of gear and talents, I want to compare holy shock, flash of light 6, and holy light rank 9.
Base stats for a level 60 for each abiility is :
holy shock rank 3 is 365 to 395 (both damage and healing)
FoL6 is 343 to 383 ( improved by 12% via healing light talent to 384 to 434)
HL 9 is 1590 to 1770 (improved by 12% via healing light talent to 1781 to 1982)
gear healing bonus is 1037. Intellect score is 363. So, I would assume that 3/5 holy guidance would award 76 to damage and healing. While a 5/5 holy guidance would award 127 damage and healing. Another assumption would be that each ability is effected by the same spell power reduction from the talent as in gear bonuses. So, Holy shock having an average of 380 +32 from HG=412 +11 from gear=423 + 42 from sanc Aura for a total of 465 damage. 5/5 holy guidance would effect holy shock like this: 380 avg +53 from HG +11 from gear for a total of 444.

FoL6 should be 409 avg healing with (1037 gear, +76 from HG(3/5))= 1113*.42=467.46 +409 base * 1.06%=929 for new avg heal.
FoL6 (1037+127 from HG(5/5))=1164*.42 +409 base =897 for new avg heal
HL 9 1881.5 avg (1037+76)=1113*.71+1881.5*1.06= 2832 new avg heal
HL 9 (1037+127)=1164*.71+1881.5=2707.94 new avg heal.
HL9 w/o HG 1037*.71+1881.5*1.06=2774.8
if my calculations are correct then holy guidance is easily replaced with sanctity aura. This aura will allow the paladin to tank and heal others with greater effectiveness.

From a raiding healing perspective holy is viable to 41+. Protection is viable to 23 with ardent defender at 31-35 possibly being useful. And retribution is viable to 23 with some discussion to come on Sanctified Crusader.

Basically 2% chance to crit on a target for 25 people sounds like 50% of a person at first but its not.

9 classes per faction.

25/9 = 2.777

2.777 * 4 = 11.111

So potentially encounters will be tuned for 11 healers 14 dps. I expect healers to be lower though at least a 15/10 split desired by blizz.

That gets you about a 30% of a person increase in dps from talented JotC. Depending on what crit rates are its less though. If everyone was at 50% crit rate it becomes only 20% of a person. If not everyone has 200% damage from crits it becomes less again. So take dots which i believe cant crit, every fraction of raid dps which is dots or other non crittable attacks reduces the viability of speccing heavy ret.

If your talking about speccing something fun its a seperate issue but from a raid benefit perspective im not inclined to suggest people spec heavy ret yet. From the presumably untuned level 70 numbers im seeing paladins seem to be even further behind the 8 ball than they are currently in terms of raid dps. If encounters are tuned to max possible dps maybe it will be needed but since its impossible to get the 2% crit and have judgements longer than 10 seconds it will be a nightmare to heal effectively while maintaing the judgement and will put the judger smack bang in any close range aoe.

Everything depends on druids and priests though, what they end up getting as far as healing and damage goes. Not to mention that its impossible to predict what the new ranks of spells will be for all classes.

As far as one versus the other goes your really trading 14% of total int counting as +healing and the 8.333% averaged mana cost reduction against 6% more healing on people affected by your sanctity aura. Which is +50 healing with your numbers. Also the mana cost reduction can be more effective when healing is bursted.

When considering 1 paladin specced for each 21-23 point non holy combination though you can consider how much everyone else gains from them. Trading a little individual efficiency for increased raid efficiency.

I wasn't excited about the ret tree after patch 1.9. Nor have I been excited about the ret tree now. It's supposedly the melee DPS tree. But without the crit damage modifiers such as my hunter's mortal shots or lethaltity, I don't see much melee DPS at all. There are other skills and talents required to be effective at damage that are not appearing for the paladin class. Shamans get dual wielding with a potential of +13% to hit to offset the miss penalty. What do paladins get? nothing. It's quite obvious that paladins are forced into the role of healer and off tank. Which is why I considered sanctity aura as the highest into ret that I would go. This aura has it's benefits as the % is based on the total amount healed and damage dealt as opposed to a modified % of spell power. Spell power is nice but it gets reduces by the cast time. So the aura will outperform in that regard. But, my worry is when to actually use the aura. Some people are fixated on devo aura from pallies in the MT group. Also, those outside the paladin's group don't get the increased healing. Holy guidance's advantage is increased healing for the entire raid while sanctity does better in smaller groups.

Fix your profile niaina.

So I was messing around with some math trying to figure out if pallys can actually tank with the numbers we have been given.


The OP has to do with healing but I figured this was a good thread to post it in:


So tanking is 3 things, mitigating, sustaining, and holding aggro.

(Im using level 60 numbers, but with the new talents, things will change at 70 but I feel like I the math I have is more solid for level 60)

So from the sustained DPS thread, the dps of a rogue/mage going all out with no conserns for aggro is around 600dps give or take.

So the paladin must generate around 600 threat per second to hold aggro.

Paladin white damage is a small part of the equation, lets say 150dps, which fully raid buffed in my healing gear I can do so I assume that should be an easily hitable number espcially with + weapon skill, and + to hit from the prot tree.

Then holy damage:

First Seal of Rightousness, which given a 2.0 speed weapon, hits about 30 holy damage each swing, so 15 holy damage each second.

Juding that seal deals 162 (low end) holy damage, you can judge every 8 seconds, so 20 holy damage each second.

The mob is hitting you every 2 seconds about, running retribution aura which deals 20 damage back per hit you deal another 10 holy damage each second.

Blowing Max rank concecrate deals 384 holy damage over 8 seconds, so 48 more holy damage each second.

Assuming you block approx 50% of the time, (spamming holy sheild for +30% + 5% base, + defense gear) on a block with holy sheild and blessing of Scantuary you return 261 holy damage each block, /4 (for two swings from the monster.. 65 holy damage per block.

So adding it all up the paladin generates 15+20+10+48+65 = 158 tps.

Paladin is running rightous fury for and has it talented for an addtional 110% holy threat.

So (158*1.1) + 158 = 331tsp (holy) + 150tsp (white) = 481tps.

Not even taking into account the rogues natural threat reduction, if they are doing 600dps, with blessing of salvation on they only deal 420tps. ***The paladin is up 61tps each second the fight goes on.***

Assuming the rogue has 30% threat reduction from blessing of salvation, the paladin can hold aggro, add in some decent spell damage gear on the paladin, more white dps, or another paladin running scanity aura (10% more holy damage) this gets even better.

-------So given current numbers the paladin can hold aggro over a fully geared rogue------------

(I think this was allready basically known by the community, but its nice to actually see the numbers on it, the real flaw with pally tanking is that so much of the threat relies on them being hit, that if the mob peels off, they have little way to get it back.)

But can the paladin susstain it.

We go back to our theoretical mob that hits every 2.0 seconds, and lets say he deals 8000 unmitigated damage a hit.

(Is this even close to a correct ammount? I have never tanked a raid boss so I have no idea.

The paladin has 60% mitgation so takes approx 1600 damage a second.

If the paladin is healed for roughly that ammount each second, he gains 160 mana per second.

So does 160mps sustain those aggro abilities?
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Seal of rightousness costs 170 mana to cast, and 75 mana to judge. Assuming a 8 second cycle thats 31mps

Holy sheild costs 320 mana every 10 seconds, so 32mps

Concecrate costs 568 mana every 8 seconds, so 71mps.

So a total of 31+32+71 = 134 mps.

If the 10% healing to mana skill stays in, the paladin actually gains 16 or so MPS, not counting BoW, JoW, Oils, Pots etc.

-----------------------------------

So correct me if Im wrong, but it looks to me like as long as the math stays the same and continues to scale in a similar fassion paladin tanks will indeed work.

One thing to consider is that having Judgement of the Crusader on the mob will also increase holy damage.

It's nice to see others actually trying the theorycrafting for pallies. I have seen so much rogue math to drown me. But, yes a pally can hold aggro if they get it initally. And you do see how useful the sanctity aura can be if used by a second paladin. So, you can imagine a main tank group that has prot warrior, prot pally, holy/ret pally, enhancement shaman, and warlock. All the shammy totems, blood pact, and 2 auras for devo and sanctity. Now the prot pally can off tank an add while the prot warrior tanks the boss and both get the healing bonus from priests and druids outside the group via sanctity. Sanctity aura will allow the prot pally to hold aggro on their target as a main assist if needed as well.

Someone please correct me if I am mistaken, but, unless I am missing something here, you have your values for required threat generation vs those 2 classes wrong.

600dps, from rogues, or mages, is not equal to 600threat.

You need to factor in Rogue's natural passive threat reduction (of 29%) and also BoS.
You need to factor in Mage's talent specs which provide 30% threat reduction, and also BoS.

And lastly, you need to take into account aggro transfering thresholds (10% over for melee, 30% over for ranged)

A rogue, at 600DPS, with BoS, generates ~300threat (298.2)
A mage, at 600DPS, with BoS, generates ~300threat (294)


Rogues will pull aggro when they outpace their tank by 10% threat, meaning, that the tank must be generating over 270threat to hold aggro from this rogue.

Mages will pull aggro (in normal circumstances) when they outpace their tank by 30% threat, meaning, that the tank must be generating over 230threat to hold aggro from this mage.

You don't want either pulling aggro, so, the paladin tank needs to be generating over 270threat/sec in this scenario to properly hold aggro.


This changes your calculations by quite a bit, because as you can see, you need less than half of the threat generation that you proposed at first to in fact, hold aggro in the scenario that you theorized over.

True,

I realize that you need even less threat, (as I tried to note towards the end of my wall of text) I was trying to look at absolute worst case.

So a theroritcal class that has 0 aggro reduction with just BoS, producing 600dps can be held aggro off of.

It only gets better with inate aggro reductions, feights and vanishes, smart players etc.

I figure best to look at the worst case and see if its possible, since in real time, there will be lots of other factors at play (aggro dumps, unlucky rng pulls, etc)

Better safe than sorry, I agree completely.

But even in worst case scenarios, I think expecting to generate over 2x what is really needed might be a bit overboard, not to mention it's much harder to generate 600threat/sec than 300. I'd say that maybe you'd want around ~450threat/sec and call it at that? Surely bad things will happen, but, good things can happen too, as DPS players miss/resist strings (well, a good thing from an aggro holding perspective, not so good if it's a timed fight, heh)