The title should hopefully say it all. We just killed the Twin Emps, and are headed off to both Ouro/Cthun and Instructor Razuvious now. My question is (IGNORING dmg meters on trash, boss encounters only) what have people's successes been with both 7/21/21+2 and NF/Conflag for late AQ40 and Naxx bosses. I want to push for the maximum damage on bosses I can get.

I recently picked up 7/21/21+2, and so far I love it. Great shadowbolt spam build with some versatility. However, NF/Conflag seems to do more sustained damage than I thought possible. How have you found it on long, single target boss fights? Intricate fights like Cthun?

I tried DS/Ruin (after being NF/Conflag for about 4 months) not too long ago and eventually realised how much better certain talents make me in a raiding environment.

Not having Grim Reach drove me insane. Having to run within 30 yards of crap to throw up a curse, then run 6 yards back felt so stupid. I was also unable to give the tanks blood pact and had to keep reminding the group leader to put a different warlock in the tank group because he was so used to throwing me in there. Another thing I really, REALLY misssed was the burst damage of Conflag.

In MC and BWL there really isn't any fight where burst damage or fire damage in general are necessary because the fight is either totally simplistic (Anything in MC), the boss is completely immune to fire (Rag, Vael, Drakes, Nef) or the threat you generate is huge issue (Lashlayer).

A Conflag spec in AQ40 and Naxx is like stepping into a giant themepark made just for you. In almost every fight in AQ40, burst damage is essential and you can get away with using fire spells. I find myself using Searing Pain a lot in AQ40 simply because threat is just not an issue on a lot of fights, whether its impossible to pull aggro (C'thun), I want to pull aggro (Ouro), pulling aggro doesn't even matter (Sartura) or I'm too busy doing other crap that the threat I generate doesn't matter (Fankriss). And the burst damage, by GOD the burst damage, makes you king of the hill on certain fights.

Same deal with some fights in Naxx. I wanted to break down and cry like a little child when I was DS/Ruin spec on Maexxna and was but a mere shadow of my former self when I had to get people out of those Cacoons, or trying to kill the scarabs on Anub'Rekhan running around chewing up the healers and those stupid gargoyles. All kinds of stuff.

I certainly wouldn't recommend NF/Conflag on something like Patchwerk, unless you're getting constant heals or you have more pots than sense. That's the kind of fight where DS/Ruin shines for longevity.

Bibdy - you say DS/Ruin shines for longevity. Is this because you use a restorative sacrifice (VW / FH)? Or simply the mana efficiency of your spells?

How many fights in late AQ40/Naxx would you really say you missed DS of either VW or FH for longevity?

I know that two of our warlocks have had extremely good success with 7/21/23, and both of them are warlock DM competitive while generally being undergeared. From my own experience messing around with the class, I think it definately offers the most raid flexibility and damage potential. The changes to lifetap may mix this up some, but pre 1.12 being able to get almost 500 mana per 5 as a warlock was kind of insane.

One of the biggest issues is not being able to give out Blood Pact to those who need it. I mean, you're 'flexible' in that you can swap between the Imp and various DS buffs for either regeneration or damage, but being cornered into giving out Blood Pact means you've got a 21 point talent sitting there doing nothing for you.

I'm so torn between keeping the flexibility of being able to sac a VW on fights where I take dmg, and going the pure damage route. Currently, PvP is not something I do more than once a week if at all (even on a PvP server, I just have time to log to our raids).

From my experience, NF/Conflag is rather impractical for raiding. As a poster above me mentioned, not having grim reach is annoying, but getting your immolate knocked off constantly before you can conflag it is even more so. It seems too situational to be worth it IMO.

Ah, the reliance on DOTs to be effective, I had forgotten about that. We typically bring 4-5 warlocks to a raid (they're one of our most active and competent classes), so perhaps I will stick with DS/ruin.

Eh, sort of. If you get stuck in the MT group then ok, you have to have that Imp out, but then at least you have Improved Imp (which a lot of other builds don't). Aside from that, there are a ton of fights in Naxx and AQ40 where even if the extra Imp HP is useful for your party, the fact that they're going to be constantly gaining and losing the buff from movement nullifies the utility they'd gain.

VVV Obviously so VVV

There's no reason you shouldn't be throwing up DOTs as DS/Ruin either.

Oh I'm not talking about pure damage here. Theoretically other builds can do more damage over long durations, but, like I've tried to explain to people on the WoW warlock forums (entirely in vain, I might add) there's a huge difference between a theoretical fight where you can just go balls to the damned wall damaging something and the actual fights in the game today.

If I could stand there and spam shadowbolts, Corruptions, COAs etc time the cows came home with SM/Ruin I doubt my current build would stand a chance in keeping up. NF/Conflag is just convenient for me. I've tried a ton of builds and this is the one for me.

When TBC comes out, I imagine I'll end up with a 41/0/20 or 20/0/41 build for the same reason that NOT having certain talents drives me crazy.