I would like to start a discussion forum specifically targetted at the 41 pt Retribution Paladin in BC.

DISCLAIMER: I am not arguing for the dps paladin, only exploring the viability of one given the changes in the Retribution tree. I am a Holy healing Paladin who is also a Paladin class leader. If you don't want to explore the viability and are already closed minded, please do not read this thread.

I started out as a Ret Paladin (some say "Retnoob") for leveling but learned that our maximum contribution to the raid is found in healing while we use our "hybrid" talents. I settled on a 21 0 30 build after using a 33 18 0 build for a long time. I enjoy healing in raids and dpsing in smaller instances ... bring more of a variety to our play style. I am a MC and BWL veteran with some experience in AQ40 and we are just starting Naxx, so certainly some of you are more experienced than I.

I am interested in how well a ret pally will do in BC, time will tell. With the 41 point talent "Sanctified Crusader" we will be adding a 2% increase to the crit rate (melee and spell crit) to the raid. This will of course limit our protection and holy abilities to be no higher than 20 pts in those trees. Therefore, our healing and tanking will be average at best. Because crusader is not affected by Lasting Judgements, the judgement will only last 10 seconds so it is best to have the paladin in melee vs. the judged mob.

For a 25 man raid, let's assume there will be 15 dps classes so our 41 pt talent will give a 2x15=30% dps increase of one dps class. That means the "retnoob" must dps at 70% of a dps class (mage, rogue, fury warrior, ...) to legitimately be considered a dps class (DISCLAIMER2: I am not promiting this). It remains to be seen how well our dps will be scaled compared to the other classes but we will no doubt need a slow, high end 2her along with dps plate with plenty of agi/crit and str. I think we will need less mana due our new spells (lvl 66 spiritual attunement - regaining 10% mana of healing) and talents (Benediction/Empowered Judgement to lower mana cost of Judgements).

Let's just assume we will be at about 70% of the dps of a full dps class ... but how will we get there? We will be using the rank 7 seal of the crusader, judging it, and then using the new rank 6 seal of command. We will be judging the new seal of command every 8 seconds and using Avenging Wrath every 3 minutes for 20 seconds, and perhaps other trinkets/abilities with a cooldown. I assume we will not be using consecration since it is a very mana inefficient form of attack on a single target, saving that attack for quicker fights with 2 or more enemies. That will be our basic attack sequence, agree?

Given that we are a dps class, we will also be benefitting the raid via the new Improved Sanctity Aura ... giving our group (prolly the MT group) a 6% bonus to healing. In addition, we will be providing an additional blessing (4 instead of 3 perhaps, or 3 instead of 2) allowing certain classes one more blessing. We will also be able to use our blessing of protection/spell warding every 3 or 5 minutes to help protect a class from an attack and our lay on hands every 60 minutes. Perhaps these abilities will be focussed on the MT?

I am sure you have noticed that Blizzard is changing the spells/talents in alpha. They changed Fanatacism from a 10% crit increase to Seal of Command/Judgements to a 15% increase to Judgements only ... a nerf. I have seen the rumors of the higher level spells but they are not confirmed:

Seal of Command rank 6 280 mana 289.5-350.5, 579-640 stunned lvl 70
Consecration rank 6 670 mana 592 damage over 8 seconds (74 dps) lvl 70 (confirmed on Blizz BC website)
Seal of the Crusader rank 7 inc holy damage by 190 lvl 62

There you have it, the basic outline of the rise of the ret pally for BC. Comments and commentary are welcomed! I would like your addition and corrections...

Question 1: Is Sanctified Crusader a viable raid buff at 41 points? (and Improved Sanctity that is a 23 point talent)
Question 2: If the paladin has to have 41 points in the Retribution tree, (while still playing his hybrid role) does he focus on healing or dps? This has ramnifications on both talent selection and gear. Admittedly, this question is not answerable until we have more info from Blizzard.

Edit: removed retnoob, replaced by ret pally
Edit2: added DISCLAMERS
Edit3: added Questions 1,2

Don't sign your posts.

A Ret Pally (Retnoob is a WoW forums term, I don't like it) will be useful, but only one Pally can be the SoCrusader bitch, however, since one pally is hitting to keep up Crusader, another Pally will be needed to keep up Wisdom, so 2 pally will be hitting away at the mob.

It remains to be seen how much dps a Ret pally can do and if it is worth using one of them.

Good point, but seal of light and seal of wisdom can be affected by Lasting Judgements so Holy Paladins can simply judge every 40 seconds to keep those seals up. Seal of the Crusader needs to be refreshed every 10 seconds, forcing a paladin to be in melee.

To the other point, I guess retnoob is given by those classes skeptical of paladin dps ... hence retnoob. Of course, we prefer to be called holy warriors, err ret pallies. To do a fair comparison, a retnoob will have have to have similar dps plate and weapons as a fury/mortal strike warrior.

I always saw Retnoob more as a person who stacked melee damage gear / talents far beyond the point where paladins drop their hybrid versatility, which in the case of stacking melee damage would be the ability to heal. But yeah don't call any paladin with points in Retribution a retnoob because that's basically a slur.

Real question is how many full time healers will be needed in average boss encounter...

Personally I always called them Retardins.

Anyways, there's a big difference between viable and optimal. For example, Bear Form tanking is viable... but it's definately not optimal.

Well, lets assume your are going to have one pally with 41 points in Retribution and using sanctified crusader to get the 2% crit buff to the whole raid.

Another way to look at it is this ... is it better for that paladin to heal with 20 points in holy, tank with 20 points in protection, or dps with 41 points in retribution? Personally, I think it comes down to a pally healing while swinging to refresh crusader or a pally dpsing with a 2her to maximize dps. Or, could a paladin switch back and forth based upon the needs of the particular boss encounter?

Well, for defense of ret paladin - his damage bonus from 41 pointer is universal, while shadow weaving in TBC will lose most of its charm with only 2 (3 tops) warlocks per raid, with good chance of them using fire nukes instead of shadow ones. So shadow priests are left with VE as raid benefit really.

How desirable do people think Imp Sanctity Aura will be? (+6% healing done to people affected by Sanctity Aura) Seems like if it were good enough to make 1 Paladin go 23 points into Ret, that Paladin might as well go 41 into Ret?

But I suppose you could go 38/0/23, so Imp Sanctity Aura isn't as good of an excuse?

Frankly, it seems as though even one Ret paladin is something of a waste... the real question for me is about how good of a tank Prot paladins will be.

It would be a reasonable assumption that the scaling of our current dps abilities. White/Joc/Soc would scale at a similar rate to the other dps classes current abilities. Thus the question can a paladin at 70 maintain 70% dps of level 70dps classes using current abilities can be guesstimated by looking at level 60 paladin dps vs level 60 dps classes. Whilst there are many pictures around the official paladin forums showing paladins topping damage meters in MC etc, the truth of the matter is paladsin can't dps to 70% of that of other dps classes in real high end raiding. Use Patchwerk or LOatheb to benchmark yourself, and it is just not possible.

Thus SoC & buffing a raid with 2% crit buff alone will not be a valid reason enough in my eyes for a paladin to replace a melee class....

However, as i mentioned elsewhere in another post, the key could well lie in Seal of Vengenace. If implemented correctly, it would be possible for the DoT alone to do 70% of a dpsers dps. In fact it could do more if it follows current in game mechanics. IT also has the advantage of a paladin only needs to hit a mob once every ten seconds to refresh the DoT and JoTC. This would give paladin true hybrid functionallity allowing them to both dps and heal at the same time.

Even if this seal is not implemented as well as i personally would like (lets assume only doing 50% of a dps class), rather than having a paladin "replace" a dps class, they could go to a raid as a healer, healing when needed, and on encounters where healing was not needed so much, do 50% of the dps of a dps class whilst still healing with about 50% efficiency, whilst still act as an emergency tank. This type of hybrid i feel will be of great value.

Nice subject/verb agreement. Next time try "to claw out his own eyes."

Edit: Assuming you're male, of course. But the point is I'm guessing you're not asking me if I have the urge to claw out your eyes because Demetrius used "prolly."