Not to derail this further into pvp vs pve healers, but imo Heigan is more of a gimmick fight, that an actual skill fight. There is nothing in that encounter that require you to use alot of abilities or skills to stay alive, you simply need to move. Also the use of nature protection pots will give this fight a much larger margin for individual error. Gluth, faerlina and to a lesser degree Noth is more skill based, since one of the greatest skills in pve is the ability to keep your self alive as long as possible. So far, I think the encounter that demands the most skill from a large amount of people is Gluth, atleast it seems like it for us. Also Gothik when we get there seems to be a really tough fight, and a logistical nightmare.
sorry, but no. those guys you describe sound like the type of people who still havent figured out the max range of their heals and how to utilize that range or when they need to stop healing and get moving (ESPECIALLY on sartura). those are the people that stand right next to their tanks, then wonder why the hell the mob turned around and smacked them.
Qft. Even as a healer (sometimes moreso in small instances than raids) you aren't limited to standing still and spamhealing. You get out of range of AoE, whirlwinds, deep breaths and whatever else is coming your way. You spin around to get some sense of what's going on with the tank you're healing, or you run back to a tank when you somehow got aggro.
But.. as a healer, skill and tactics mean something different (I imagine) than for the DPSers and (especially) the tanks. While they get to really do the tactical things, it seems that often the strategy for healers boils down to 'just keep us alive kkthx'. Of course, this is still a challenge, and you need to know what's going on around you, but it seems (as someone who has only been an endgame healer) like the 'frontline' people need to put a lot more effort into it, and are more immediately involved with the specifics of a boss fight.
How...as a healer...do you move with your mouse while playing whack a mole with 39 people? You do not circle strafe to heal your target, or have to stand perfectly behind him. Basically, to play a healer is counter-intuitive to the FPS mentality/playstyle. You are required to be slower than a melee class, as you have massive casting time. You are required to take a few aoe ticks...in order to finish that spell which saves the offtank noone else is watching.
...
You guys wonder why a healer doesnt "OMG get outta rain of fire!" or "switch sides!". We are trained not to...and half the time we trying to keep some whiny tanks up at the cost of our bills. Hell...half the time i cant even see the mob through my healthbars.
I never understood the whole, "I was trained to do this from level 1 to 60" mindset. I mean, if your guild is doing AQ40 / Nax, then chances are good that you've spent more time raiding than you spent leveling up. If you're still trying to use tactics that were valid in places like Scarlet Monastery, Maraudon, and Blackrock Depths, then I don't know what to say. It makes no sense.
I know plenty of healers who move very well using their mouse and do a good job healing. Yeah, you use your mouse to heal. So what? When you're moving you can't heal, so why the hell wouldn't you use your mouse to move? It's not difficult in the least. I mean, seriously, I don't see any logical reason for someone not to use a mouse when it is by far the most effective way of getting around.
Like some of the other people in this thread, I have a history of playing games that actually require fast reaction speeds and good keyboard/mouse control... Counter-Strike, Quake, StarCraft, etc. It never ceases to amaze me how many people who play WoW seriously lack videogaming basics.
I used to have a huge image here, but then it got removed and now I\'ve developed chronic depression and suicidal tendencies. /wrists http://ctprofiles.net/7275
How...as a healer...do you move with your mouse while playing whack a mole with 39 people? You do not circle strafe to heal your target, or have to stand perfectly behind him. Basically, to play a healer is counter-intuitive to the FPS mentality/playstyle. You are required to be slower than a melee class, as you have massive casting time. You are required to take a few aoe ticks...in order to finish that spell which saves the offtank noone else is watching.
These people you guys mock? i can assure that they are mostly healers. People trained from lvl 1 to stay stable and in range of their tanks. People that watch Sartura bearing down on them whirlwinding, while they watch the last second left on their casting bar...hoping it gets off before she gets to the tanks. Maybe half a second too late to dodge the spin.
I advise you guys to watch movies from a healer PoV, and watch the movements of the healer. We cant jump around when we are bored...or take a second to reposition...or do a cool pivot thing when we are FRAPSing. 60 levels taught us to stand still or move to get back in LoS. Not to twitch jump and backstab and circle strafe and intercept/charge where we need to go. Or to dodge spinning mobs or aoe effects or cone shaped breath attacks.
You guys wonder why a healer doesnt "OMG get outta rain of fire!" or "switch sides!". We are trained not to...and half the time we trying to keep some whiny tanks up at the cost of our bills. Hell...half the time i cant even see the mob through my healthbars.
You sound as if you die every single movement based encounter and should be congratulated for it...?
I've done enough healing to realize that it is no different from the healer perspective compared to the ranged perspective. You canceling your heal, moving 4 steps left, then starting a new heal (and surviving!) is infinitly more valuable then eating the death and getting one last heal off in 99.9% of situations you will ever encounter. And if this idea is somehow needed, get better *other* healers that are able to heal while some are moveing and not capable of healing. Healers are trained to not die first in all the 5 mans up to level 60. Many people seem to forget this as you hit the raid heal game. There is plenty of time to observe what whatever mob you are fighting is doing during those long cast times, so you know if you need to cancel or at least know if you need to move the instant your cast finishes.
Regarding "whack-a-mole" with mouse movement, you don't click your skills do you?
Healers are trained to not die first in all the 5 mans up to level 60.
Exactly. Who is the most important person for me to keep alive in a raid? Myself. Because if I'm dead I'm certainly not keeping anyone else alive. It doesn't mean I'm going to start running or heal myself at the slightest danger or health loss, but it looks like I'm in a situation where I could die, my #1 priority is to get myself out of it.
I don't see why people see healing and situational awareness and movement need to be mutually exclusive. Sure it’s a little bit harder to keep track of health bars etc and keep an eye on everything around you but it’s a skill healers need to develop for raiding.
Part of it is setting up a decent UI (so you can glance between your raid/party/targets health and your surroundings). Its also vital you have every important skill & ability hotkey'ed – I'm surprised at how many people still use the mouse to click spells and abilities.
The skill part is learning to use a combination of keyboard (for forward movement & strafing) and holding down left or right mouse button & mouse movement to look around or to change direction. Its easy enough to keep running, turn left and right or swivel your view with the mouse, in between insta-casts (HOTs, renews, shields) as the global cooldown gives you enough time to click the next person who needs a heal then move your view or change direction. I eventually, partially out of boredom, started constantly moving on most encounters and only ever stopping moving when I needed to cast a heal – I suspect it was caused by coming from a fast paced fps, which I played at a reasonably high level, so I would get restless if not constantly on the move.
PvP healing definitely prepares you for any kind of movement-based PvE encounter. Targeted AOES, slow moving insta-gibs, etc ain't got nothing on ten guys gunning for your ass.
I remember a long time ago when we first learned Ony, after some people got killed by a deep breath, some frustrated guildmate asked in vent if any of them had ever played a nintendo game before. You can pick up pretty much any action game off the shelf and it will have way way more complex manuvering than Sartura or C'thun, yet there's still people who have the hardest time dealing with environmental awareness.
Think about who plays MMOGs. They tend to be the people who are playing Final Fantasy and other turn based RPGs, not people who play Counterstrike, Starcraft, Devil May Cry, fighting games, etc.
Most MMOG players, from what I've seen, have absolutely terrible reflexes. I imagine hitting them in the knee with a hammer and them not responding for hours at a time.
Healers in particular have issues with environmental awareness while doing their job. Funny enough, I've seen tanks with the same problem, the only people who truly seem to be able to handle it are DPSers, and even they get punked out by environmental effects a lot. Basically most MMOG players are not used to having to use their reflexes and coordination. EQ's incredibly slow combat model is a stark contrast to WoW's high speed combat model.
I guess what I consider to be more skill related would be things like adjusting position quickly enough to dodge the splash damage from a rocket quickly enough at close range in like Quake 3 or something. Compared to that just about any sort of skill requirement in WoW is pretty weak. Though the larger (non-fps) demographic probably prevents Blizzard from ever implenting a skill chech that high.
Hehe, I come from FPS games myself, being a rather very good TFC player (yes it's old :p) so WoW movement and stuff posed no difficulties whatsoever. In fact me and my TFC buddies had loads of fun randomy ganking while leveling up because we could win 90% of the fights by simply being faster on the ball than the others, even if they had a numbers advantage.
Bragging aside, when I'm in a 5 man with guildies and some of them are underperforming pretty badly I always ask what fps games they have on their PC and when theres one I recognize I'll play it with them for a while and then 'suggest' they should change their WoW keybindings to a similar setup.
Helps alot.
I know plenty of healers who move very well using their mouse and do a good job healing. Yeah, you use your mouse to heal. So what? When you're moving you can't heal, so why the hell wouldn't you use your mouse to move? It's not difficult in the least. I mean, seriously, I don't see any logical reason for someone not to use a mouse when it is by far the most effective way of getting around.
I guess alot depends on how your keys are setup. However, I prefer being able to blindly move with my keyboard (aka not using mouse to look around) on my paladin so I have the flexibility to pick a target and instantly stop moving and start casting. I tried using my mouse for a while, because it is more convenient but it made me slower when it counted.
Originally Posted by Zyla
If you can undo the bra with your teeth, it leaves your hands free for the keyboard.
Wait what, are you one of those Paladins who make a huge U-turn when they try to get back into range of their party? I always found that amusing, but more so on Rogues because it's just more depressing to see one doing it.
I'm not saying I am the one dying...in fact, I am an expert (or just lucky), at dodging the bosses in these situations. If I die to Faerlina, its to melee after an enrage splatters a tank on a broken MC, and if I die to Sartura, the fights a wipe.
I too came from Quake3 and UT...I was a big LAN'r pre wow, so the training does help. I just got the feeling from the first few posts, that this was mostly a "haha look at stupid people not moving...they should l2twitch frag" post. I too sometimes feel that way, until I see the people who die, and realize what they were doing when they got splattered. Watch and see how well fights turn out if the preists run the 2nd they take damage. A good example of this is the Wyrnguards in BWL...healers trying to sneak a heal off before the warstomp...and if they dodge the warstomp, the tank will be dead.
This game had 0 situations that required healer movement prior to Sartura. The closest is the BA or GeddonBomb'd target having to run to a designated spot...or maybe dodging RoF on Gehennas. SO yes...pre-sartura/faerlina, there is no training for non-fps'rs, and at least 50% of WoW raiders come from turned based games like Final Fantasy, or low impact games like RPG's/RTS's.
I'm just defending the poor people that eat 10 deaths on frogger slimes or always get beat to a pulp on Sartura. It's a game, people without trained reflexes should not be laughed at. People too keen on big numbers and max dps at all costs should, as that is conscious failure.
PvP healing definitely prepares you for any kind of movement-based PvE encounter. Targeted AOES, slow moving insta-gibs, etc ain't got nothing on ten guys gunning for your ass.
This is generally very accurate. There is a distinct difference in skill between our healers that PVP and those that do not.
Hehe, I come from FPS games myself, being a rather very good TFC player (yes it's old :p) so WoW movement and stuff posed no difficulties whatsoever.
Go go TFC! Wish people still played :( TF2 in 2007 though!
Ok enough sidetrakcing,I definitly can see that FPS playing helps tremendously. Probably akin to what Gurgthock had said about the best players always jumping/moving around as that is something that you learn how to do in most FPS games and gives you a ton more focus on what is happening compared to others (generally).
Originally Posted by Flubber
Watch and see how well fights turn out if the preists run the 2nd they take damage. A good example of this is the Wyrnguards in BWL...healers trying to sneak a heal off before the warstomp...and if they dodge the warstomp, the tank will be dead.
...
I'm just defending the poor people that eat 10 deaths on frogger slimes or always get beat to a pulp on Sartura. It's a game, people without trained reflexes should not be laughed at. People too keen on big numbers and max dps at all costs should, as that is conscious failure.
Or perhaps the priests would understand that warstomp on the Wyrmguards have a definite range that is quite easy to stand outside of and can continue healing normally without ever taking that 1000 damage warstomp and stun :)
Even on Sartura, you don't have to heal much when she is whirlwinding down on a ranged person as there shouldn't be others in the way except a tank to bring her back to where she should be and the damage output is not such that the tank will die within a microsecond of getting aggro.
It isn't even reflexes really. It is more general awareness about the likly course of events to come in the next few seconds. FPS players have a huge edge on this one over turn based type games, but this isn't such a difficult skill to learn.
I love PvP healing. It might be why I enjoy the Ossirian fight so much. Anyway, healers should have learnt how to move way before Sartura, even if you're on a PvE server and have never stepped inside a battleground. Moving in and out of range of Mag's fears in MC or even out of random AoEs in 5 mans.
FpS, PvP, all of these things are great for a first or second attempt, but the true test of an effective player is quite simply their ability to learn. Ultimately, all of these fights can be broken down into a memorizable set of movements that you must perform to beat the encounter. As a healer, I look for the "system," if you will, those sweet spots you move to and from to avoid danger, and I concentrate on times when certain classes or players take damage. Granted, a healthy amount of situational awareness is absolutely neccessary, but after the fourth kill on a mob you should absolutely have all teh variable mapped out in your head.
It isn't even reflexes really. It is more general awareness about the likly course of events to come in the next few seconds. FPS players have a huge edge on this one over turn based type games, but this isn't such a difficult skill to learn.
Oh yes, for 3 years all my senses were primed to solve one problem: 'there's the flag, that's the defense, how am I gonna get it'
The flag position was a matter of communication, the defense is that awareness variable; see, hear > react. The faster the better.
I think RTS players have a different skillset thats just as valuable tho, knowing what to do when based on certain variables and when to change to optimally use your resources (We require more vespene gas!) is probably what makes the difference between a healer who runs out of mana and one who can keep going just that little bit longer.
That is, providing he didn't die by standing in rain of fire to long ;-)
Originally Posted by Zyla
If you can undo the bra with your teeth, it leaves your hands free for the keyboard.
Anyway, healers should have learnt how to move way before Sartura, even if you're on a PvE server and have never stepped inside a battleground. Moving in and out of range of Mag's fears in MC or even out of random AoEs in 5 mans.
Considering that very little in 5 man content actually hurts significantly, and you can flat out outrange Magmadar's fear, those two particular examples wouldn't really help. Yeah, there are a few instances in MC and BWL where you should probably move out of that Rain of Fire, but it's not going to get you instagibbed the way it will on Sartura.
Doing uldaman way under your suggested level because you are the only healer the group could find classifies as 'stuff hurts significantly'.
If you already know that mags fear can be outranged you are one step ahead of those who don't ;-)
Part of a learning process is not being to harsh, thats what MC is for, learning stuff. Just cuz it doesn't instagib doesn't mean people don't pick up on things (I hope!).
Originally Posted by Zyla
If you can undo the bra with your teeth, it leaves your hands free for the keyboard.
Hmm, well I'm not from an FPS background - I played Wolfenstien (original), Doom, Doom 2, Quake, Duke Nukem and the pretty much nothing since as I just found everything after that I tried pretty samey... this was mostly before broadband/online stuff really took off
I generally prefered to get my PvP kicks on fighters - VF / SC ftw ;)
(Although having played it a bit on a mates 360 i'm tempted by Ghost Recon - it looks awesome co-op fun)
So - tell me what the optimal movement control system is from your experience - always willing to pick up anything thats going to improve my performance...
Skytor, before someone of EJ is gonna come over with a hammer and ban you, I'd advise you to fill in the profile. ;-)
That aside, I'm from the RTS/RPG part, not FPS. I can recognise myself in what Nemesis says, I'm the min-maxer healer in that one, keeping healing and healing on my alt and, indeed, sometimes losing focus on my own hp, and it's oddly enough fairly the same on my mage, through anticipating I live a lot longer than some others in my guild, and when I wasn't PvP'ing that often, I'd often be dead on Sartura because of rogue adds, and my survivability has gone up when I restarted PvP'ing a bit. Either that, or I'm running into an extreme string of luck. I dare say that PvP'ing, as much as some people seem to hate it, is quite handy in working with unknown variables, to a certain point. It's not like that skill is hard to learn, though ultimately, people who (have) play(ed) FPS games are at an advantage.
09/04/06, 9:31 AM
in EJBSG17
Similar Threads
