This topic only affects alliance rogues (and to some extent warriors). If any admin thinks the topic does not deserve an own thread, feel free to delete it.
I am mostly a PvE player. My main is a Nightelf Rogue that is in a guild which is currently working on Fankriss, with the expected equipment for that level of progression. Currently I am specced Combat Daggers. I was Combat Swords before but switched to daggers when the effect of +weapon skill became public, as I was rather uncomfortable playing with a built-in handicap. Luckily Combat Daggers is the better pure-DPS spec currently, so I do not miss not playing a Human. (Actually I think for PvE-daggers a nigthelf has a very slight edge - more base agility and the sometimes useful 1% dodge).
Enter the expansion. We still have a few months before the expansion will be available, and so I am seriously considering if it is worth it to level a human rogue to 60 and switch to it for the expansion. This way I would be open for whatever spec seems best or best suited for me in the expansion.
Since most, if not all, of my current equipment will soon be obsolete in the expansion anyways I would not loose too much with that switch, except for the time necessary to level that other rogue and maybe my Argent dawn and Zandalar reputation.
As I am not sure what to do I would like to hear some outside input on the topic. All my guildies are just saying is "You are crazy!". Am I? :-)
The only thing that kept me from doing this is that, in my experience, Blizzard seems to resolve their glaring imbalance. Since this affects two classes so deeply (and on Horde, Orcs & Warriors), I have faith that it will be fixed, even in a roundabout way, eventually. I imagine it'll happen through itemization. Though, it could be due for a straight nerf since it basically allows one race on one side to bypass the restrictive dagger gameplay and achieve top rogue DPS.
While possibly not worthy of it's own thread (it's certainly been discussed but never with the expansion implication), I'm glad I'm not the only person that feels very strongly about it.
The only thing that kept me from doing this is that, in my experience, Blizzard seems to resolve their glaring imbalance.
The question is, is it a glaring imbalance and does Blizzard consider it such?
According to the Chalon/Valar spreadsheet a human rogue in the absolute best gear will do 3,7% more DPS than a Nightelf. While this should irk any PvE-rogue that is serious about his class, I am not sure it can be classified as "glaring imbalance".
The more important reason to roll a human if anything is Diplomay =) 10% to rep gained in Word of Repcraft is huge!
Agree- this is what I thought the thread title was referring to.
Considering Blizz has confirmed that TBC will have numerous rep grinds, this is a huge buff for one race. Why not give humans 10% extra XP as well and be done with it (since that's essentially what this is tantamount to, except maybe even more significant). I'd trade my +5 thrown/bows for 10% rep in a microsecond...
The more important reason to roll a human if anything is Diplomay =) 10% to rep gained in Word of Repcraft is huge!
Agree- this is what I thought the thread title was referring to.
Considering Blizz has confirmed that TBC will have numerous rep grinds, this is a huge buff for one race. Why not give humans 10% extra XP as well and be done with it (since that's essentially what this is tantamount to, except maybe even more significant). I'd trade my +5 thrown/bows for 10% rep in a microsecond...
Have to agree here. Just thinking of the AQ40 scepter debacle, if you were on a PVP server (or any server where the Alliance and Horde didn't cooperate) then having a Human to do the race to Neutral was basically +10% at winning WoW.
If you're going to want to ever reroll, now would be the time to do it.
I think its too early to know if rerolling races will be "worth it" but I think its quite likely that it will be.
I always find it odd how big a deal people make out of the human reputation bonus. To be honest, I feel the bonus does extremely little -- it basically gets you nothing you wouldn't have gotten, it just gets you there slightly faster. After reaching exalted with everywhere, you're left with a racial that does absolutely nothing.
As a mage, I'm skeptical that I'm really viable in competitive arena play with the human racials. (They are absolutely the worst possible mage racials) I know I'm looking to reroll to draenei for competitive PvP -- it's unfortunate to give up a character with over half a year days played, but I think its better to suck it up and move on, then wait around unhappily in hopes blizzard "balances" the races.
I see the xpac as a great opportunity for players who have learnt from their experience over the past 2 years that they'd be happier with a different class/race and I think those who take advantage of this opportuity will likely be happier in the long run (2 years from now say) than those waiting for blizzard to "balance" things.
Blue has really never addresed the issue of racial imbalance to my satisfaction, but I don't know of any "fix" they'd likely push that, short of allowing you to reroll races or racial abilities via reputation or something, would solve the glaring racial imbalances.
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FH - LF 1 Baller PvE Mage
All noncrit DoTs (not Ignite) generate Combustion charges (Bug?)
As a mage, I'm skeptical that I'm really viable in competitive arena play with the human racials. (They are absolutely the worst possible mage racials) I know I'm looking to reroll to draenei for competitive PvP -- it's unfortunate to give up a character with over half a year days played, but I think its better to suck it up and move on, then wait around unhappily in hopes blizzard "balances" the races.
As a Rogue, I find this hard to buy. Perception is on a modest cooldown (you can use it every Arena game) and completely denies a Rogue his opener in most situations if you know he's coming (which, in Arena, you will).
I think re-rolling Human is a little dicey though. You'll get more juice out of a Sword/Mace build but are you really going to take the chance, just for that? You'll miss out on being first-wave, will have no edge on the 60-70 grind - barring getting boosted through AQ for loot, which I'll grant is likely - and all you gain is a little more dps with a certain spec, then losing the few extra agi (NE is +7 over UD afaik), 1% dodge and Shadowmeld (nice without reduced Stealth cooldown).
I think its too early to know if rerolling races will be "worth it" but I think its quite likely that it will be.
I always find it odd how big a deal people make out of the human reputation bonus. To be honest, I feel the bonus does extremely little -- it basically gets you nothing you wouldn't have gotten, it just gets you there slightly faster. After reaching exalted with everywhere, you're left with a racial that does absolutely nothing.
Yeah, when it takes me 40 hours to grind a rep from Neutral to Exalted, and it takes you 36 hours, those extra 4 hours you're left with do absolutely nothing.
I imagine someone is going to claim that 4 hours is trivial in a game where most of us have put in 3000+ hours on our characters. I invite you try to out +5 throwing or Treasure Finding.
On the same subject, would many human/NE priests re-roll dwarf or draenei (dependent on their racials)? It's a thought that's occurred to me... but thinking about getting (nearly) 300 fishing skill, regrinding rep/recipes for enchants/tailoring patterns gives me a headache :(
I always find it odd how big a deal people make out of the human reputation bonus. To be honest, I feel the bonus does extremely little -- it basically gets you nothing you wouldn't have gotten, it just gets you there slightly faster. After reaching exalted with everywhere, you're left with a racial that does absolutely nothing.
Or you could have a racial that does absolutely nothing all of the time, like say Herbalism.
I'm not complaining about the racials because I don't think they do that much of a difference in the end, but if I could choose one passive as the PvE-player I am, I'd absolutely kill for Diplomacy.
I always find it odd how big a deal people make out of the human reputation bonus. To be honest, I feel the bonus does extremely little -- it basically gets you nothing you wouldn't have gotten, it just gets you there slightly faster. After reaching exalted with everywhere, you're left with a racial that does absolutely nothing.
Or you could have a racial that does absolutely nothing all of the time, like say Herbalism.
That's coupled with the best racial in the game, an aoe stun, aswell as a 5% bonus to your HP.
As a mage, I'm skeptical that I'm really viable in competitive arena play with the human racials. (They are absolutely the worst possible mage racials) I know I'm looking to reroll to draenei for competitive PvP -- it's unfortunate to give up a character with over half a year days played, but I think its better to suck it up and move on, then wait around unhappily in hopes blizzard "balances" the races.
As a Rogue, I find this hard to buy. Perception is on a modest cooldown (you can use it every Arena game) and completely denies a Rogue his opener in most situations if you know he's coming (which, in Arena, you will).
I think re-rolling Human is a little dicey though. You'll get more juice out of a Sword/Mace build but are you really going to take the chance, just for that? You'll miss out on being first-wave, will have no edge on the 60-70 grind - barring getting boosted through AQ for loot, which I'll grant is likely - and all you gain is a little more dps with a certain spec, then losing the few extra agi (NE is +7 over UD afaik), 1% dodge and Shadowmeld (nice without reduced Stealth cooldown).
I fail to see how this is entirely true. You can watch and simply wait for perception to wear off. In arenas, I'm often going to want to start invisible likely anyways to avoid initial focus fire. Even if you do get seen, you can most likely vanish-run away, yeah it sucks you lose a 5 minute cooldown, but it sucks to have a racial that at best forces one class to use one of their cooldowns to counter it.
Even if you think perception is very effective against rogues (it isn't, escape artist/stoneform/draenie heal would all be better), and mildly effective against NE hunters in duels, it does nothing against the vast majority of classes. The other 'combat' racials are effective against multiple classes, easier to use and less situational, and are more game breaking when used well. (hello wotf, warstomp, ae silence, draenie heal, stoneform, shadowmeld)
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As for reputation bonus, I do think the few hours you save are wholly worthless. Particularly, when you work with groups of people on reputations (brood, AD rep, CC rep), it just amounts to you finishing earlier, and sitting with a full green exalted bar longer. Although I agree that likewise all of the +profession and find- treaure type racials are equally useless at end game.
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FH - LF 1 Baller PvE Mage
All noncrit DoTs (not Ignite) generate Combustion charges (Bug?)
Like I said I'm not complaining about racials and I don't think it makes a big difference in the end. As a druid I don't exactly get a lot of mileage out of the 5% hp in regular raiding.
I was going to write Engineering first, but I seem to remember someone saying you actually get a tiny, tiny bonus from Engineering by way of higher level pets. I wasn't sure if skill had an impact on using any of the gadgets, so I didn't want to use that.
Instead I should of course have used Treasure Finding - to avoid the whole "hey you get this and that instead so it's ok" discussion - as that is probably the most useless racial ever, but I actually forgot about it. I don't really think about racials that much :)
I have to say I've never understood the argument that Perception is a useful PVP racial. It works against precisely 1.3 classes. It's on a cooldown and doesn't last very long, so you have to know they're there in the first place. And if you know a rogue is there, why fuck around with perception? Use Rank 1 IAE or Demo Shout or Demo Roar or Rank 1 Hellfire or Consecrate or Flare or hit up Stealth yourself. The only class I missed out there is Priest, and if you're specced right you can use Holy Nova, all of which will bring the Rogue out of stealth as well.
Usually, of course, the first hint you get that a rogue is there is when he ambushes/Gouge/Saps you, by which point either he's out of stealth or you're stunned, so Perception is either useless or you can't use it because you're incapacitated. It's good for duels and that's it.
Anyway, as for rerolling, I personally wouldn't bother. It's a very slight boost to one specific spec. If that's really worth another three months of your life just to get back to the position you're already in, then go for it I guess, but to be honest it's a huge price for a tiny benefit. And Blizzard may well fix it in any case.
I fail to see how this is entirely true. You can watch and simply wait for perception to wear off. In arenas, I'm often going to want to start invisible likely anyways to avoid initial focus fire. Even if you do get seen, you can most likely vanish-run away, yeah it sucks you lose a 5 minute cooldown, but it sucks to have a racial that at best forces one class to use one of their cooldowns to counter it.
I don't really see that letting your team possibly be outnumbered in a 2v2 or 3v3 arena would be a good thing. It might be viable 5v5 but then again there's a bigger chance you'd be up against more than one human.
As for reputation bonus, I do think the few hours you save are wholly worthless. Particularly, when you work with groups of people on reputations (brood, AD rep, CC rep), it just amounts to you finishing earlier, and sitting with a full green exalted bar longer. Although I agree that likewise all of the +profession and find- treaure type racials are equally useless at end game.
The factions you gain in grouped settings generally come so fast that it isn't a big worry. There are a lot of different factions that people (at least where I've played) generally solo most of where Diplomacy is quite nice.
Again, it is what it is, but I don't really see how you can argue that Diplomacy is useless.
Yeah, the value of Diplomacy definitely goes up depending on what your ultimate goal is; the way reputation works in this game right now, you can only achieve exalted with Whatever through massive grinding. I know when I was killing furbolgs for crazy purplecat, the prospect of having to do the quest 70 less times or whatever because I was human was sometimes the only thing that kept me doing it. By the time I finished that, getting Timbermaw exalted was a reasonable enough prospect that I just went for it, and hey, sometimes the trinket-bear actually heals me on Loatheb, so that's nice. I can think of no reason why people wouldn't want to have to spend LESS time grinding to achieve a goal so they can spend more time doing something else, and that's what Diplomacy lets you do, currently, and there are numerous rep grinds in the game, so it remains relevent.
In expansion they're intimating that it's all quest-based with fixed gains, though, so if it's not something you're going to be killing random dudes for Diplomacy might end up less beneficial than it currently is.
Or you could have a racial that does absolutely nothing all of the time, like say Herbalism.
The only thing this is good for is one-shotting Black Lotus at 315+10 herb. For the times when you just don't have the time to fail with an elite patrol/pro farmer mere seconds from you. :)
I have to say I've never understood the argument that Perception is a useful PVP racial. It works against precisely 1.3 classes. It's on a cooldown and doesn't last very long, so you have to know they're there in the first place. And if you know a rogue is there, why fuck around with perception? Use Rank 1 IAE or Demo Shout or Demo Roar or Rank 1 Hellfire or Consecrate or Flare or hit up Stealth yourself. The only class I missed out there is Priest, and if you're specced right you can use Holy Nova, all of which will bring the Rogue out of stealth as well.
Usually, of course, the first hint you get that a rogue is there is when he ambushes/Gouge/Saps you, by which point either he's out of stealth or you're stunned, so Perception is either useless or you can't use it because you're incapacitated. It's good for duels and that's it.
Anyway, as for rerolling, I personally wouldn't bother. It's a very slight boost to one specific spec. If that's really worth another three months of your life just to get back to the position you're already in, then go for it I guess, but to be honest it's a huge price for a tiny benefit. And Blizzard may well fix it in any case.
I heard that AOE debuffs that do no damage don't work anymore for destealthing people (eg demo shout.)
Plus, wtf? Like you can just get rage to spam demo shout? Plenty of times in PVP I've known a rogue has just restealthed but I have no way to spam demo shout enough to find him. Bloodrage is 1 demo shout.
I heard that AOE debuffs that do no damage don't work anymore for destealthing people (eg demo shout.)
Plus, wtf? Like you can just get rage to spam demo shout? Plenty of times in PVP I've known a rogue has just restealthed but I have no way to spam demo shout enough to find him. Bloodrage is 1 demo shout.
If he's Vanishing you really ought to have him Rended. If he's got you in such a good stunlock that you haven't even got a Rend off, you'll have tons of rage from being hit so much.
edit: and the other point still stands. Perception is useless against Priests, Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, Warriors, Shamans and Paladins, and it's only useful against druids some of the time. It is only consistently useful against Rogues, which makes it hugely situational.
09/04/06, 5:21 AM
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