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09/04/06, 11:58 AM
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#16
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Von Kaiser
Human Mage
Black Dragonflight
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Originally Posted by Symbul
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As a mage, I'm skeptical that I'm really viable in competitive arena play with the human racials. (They are absolutely the worst possible mage racials) I know I'm looking to reroll to draenei for competitive PvP -- it's unfortunate to give up a character with over half a year days played, but I think its better to suck it up and move on, then wait around unhappily in hopes blizzard "balances" the races.
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As a Rogue, I find this hard to buy. Perception is on a modest cooldown (you can use it every Arena game) and completely denies a Rogue his opener in most situations if you know he's coming (which, in Arena, you will).
I think re-rolling Human is a little dicey though. You'll get more juice out of a Sword/Mace build but are you really going to take the chance, just for that? You'll miss out on being first-wave, will have no edge on the 60-70 grind - barring getting boosted through AQ for loot, which I'll grant is likely - and all you gain is a little more dps with a certain spec, then losing the few extra agi (NE is +7 over UD afaik), 1% dodge and Shadowmeld (nice without reduced Stealth cooldown).
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I fail to see how this is entirely true. You can watch and simply wait for perception to wear off. In arenas, I'm often going to want to start invisible likely anyways to avoid initial focus fire. Even if you do get seen, you can most likely vanish-run away, yeah it sucks you lose a 5 minute cooldown, but it sucks to have a racial that at best forces one class to use one of their cooldowns to counter it.
Even if you think perception is very effective against rogues (it isn't, escape artist/stoneform/draenie heal would all be better), and mildly effective against NE hunters in duels, it does nothing against the vast majority of classes. The other 'combat' racials are effective against multiple classes, easier to use and less situational, and are more game breaking when used well. (hello wotf, warstomp, ae silence, draenie heal, stoneform, shadowmeld)
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As for reputation bonus, I do think the few hours you save are wholly worthless. Particularly, when you work with groups of people on reputations (brood, AD rep, CC rep), it just amounts to you finishing earlier, and sitting with a full green exalted bar longer. Although I agree that likewise all of the +profession and find- treaure type racials are equally useless at end game.
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radikalnoise.com :: Dicks, Strats, Drama, eFame, and More Dicks
FH - LF 1 Baller PvE Mage
All noncrit DoTs (not Ignite) generate Combustion charges (Bug?)
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09/04/06, 12:05 PM
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#17
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Runetotem (EU)
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Like I said I'm not complaining about racials and I don't think it makes a big difference in the end. As a druid I don't exactly get a lot of mileage out of the 5% hp in regular raiding.
I was going to write Engineering first, but I seem to remember someone saying you actually get a tiny, tiny bonus from Engineering by way of higher level pets. I wasn't sure if skill had an impact on using any of the gadgets, so I didn't want to use that.
Instead I should of course have used Treasure Finding - to avoid the whole "hey you get this and that instead so it's ok" discussion - as that is probably the most useless racial ever, but I actually forgot about it. I don't really think about racials that much :)
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09/04/06, 12:07 PM
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#18
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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+CC rep was definitely not worthless if you had your Earthstrike for weeks longer than everyone else and spent less time getting it.
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09/04/06, 12:10 PM
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#19
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Piston Honda
Undead Warlock
Neptulon (EU)
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I have to say I've never understood the argument that Perception is a useful PVP racial. It works against precisely 1.3 classes. It's on a cooldown and doesn't last very long, so you have to know they're there in the first place. And if you know a rogue is there, why fuck around with perception? Use Rank 1 IAE or Demo Shout or Demo Roar or Rank 1 Hellfire or Consecrate or Flare or hit up Stealth yourself. The only class I missed out there is Priest, and if you're specced right you can use Holy Nova, all of which will bring the Rogue out of stealth as well.
Usually, of course, the first hint you get that a rogue is there is when he ambushes/Gouge/Saps you, by which point either he's out of stealth or you're stunned, so Perception is either useless or you can't use it because you're incapacitated. It's good for duels and that's it.
Anyway, as for rerolling, I personally wouldn't bother. It's a very slight boost to one specific spec. If that's really worth another three months of your life just to get back to the position you're already in, then go for it I guess, but to be honest it's a huge price for a tiny benefit. And Blizzard may well fix it in any case.
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09/04/06, 12:14 PM
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#20
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Runetotem (EU)
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Originally Posted by radikal
I fail to see how this is entirely true. You can watch and simply wait for perception to wear off. In arenas, I'm often going to want to start invisible likely anyways to avoid initial focus fire. Even if you do get seen, you can most likely vanish-run away, yeah it sucks you lose a 5 minute cooldown, but it sucks to have a racial that at best forces one class to use one of their cooldowns to counter it.
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I don't really see that letting your team possibly be outnumbered in a 2v2 or 3v3 arena would be a good thing. It might be viable 5v5 but then again there's a bigger chance you'd be up against more than one human.
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As for reputation bonus, I do think the few hours you save are wholly worthless. Particularly, when you work with groups of people on reputations (brood, AD rep, CC rep), it just amounts to you finishing earlier, and sitting with a full green exalted bar longer. Although I agree that likewise all of the +profession and find- treaure type racials are equally useless at end game.
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The factions you gain in grouped settings generally come so fast that it isn't a big worry. There are a lot of different factions that people (at least where I've played) generally solo most of where Diplomacy is quite nice.
Again, it is what it is, but I don't really see how you can argue that Diplomacy is useless.
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09/04/06, 12:20 PM
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#21
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Von Kaiser
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Yeah, the value of Diplomacy definitely goes up depending on what your ultimate goal is; the way reputation works in this game right now, you can only achieve exalted with Whatever through massive grinding. I know when I was killing furbolgs for crazy purplecat, the prospect of having to do the quest 70 less times or whatever because I was human was sometimes the only thing that kept me doing it. By the time I finished that, getting Timbermaw exalted was a reasonable enough prospect that I just went for it, and hey, sometimes the trinket-bear actually heals me on Loatheb, so that's nice. I can think of no reason why people wouldn't want to have to spend LESS time grinding to achieve a goal so they can spend more time doing something else, and that's what Diplomacy lets you do, currently, and there are numerous rep grinds in the game, so it remains relevent.
In expansion they're intimating that it's all quest-based with fixed gains, though, so if it's not something you're going to be killing random dudes for Diplomacy might end up less beneficial than it currently is.
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09/04/06, 12:55 PM
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#22
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Von Kaiser
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That's coupled with the best racial in the game, an aoe stun, aswell as a 5% bonus to your HP.
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What? Tauren don't get WOTF.
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09/04/06, 1:04 PM
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#23
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Von Kaiser
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Or you could have a racial that does absolutely nothing all of the time, like say Herbalism.
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The only thing this is good for is one-shotting Black Lotus at 315+10 herb. For the times when you just don't have the time to fail with an elite patrol/pro farmer mere seconds from you. :)
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09/04/06, 1:04 PM
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#24
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by Zephro
I have to say I've never understood the argument that Perception is a useful PVP racial. It works against precisely 1.3 classes. It's on a cooldown and doesn't last very long, so you have to know they're there in the first place. And if you know a rogue is there, why fuck around with perception? Use Rank 1 IAE or Demo Shout or Demo Roar or Rank 1 Hellfire or Consecrate or Flare or hit up Stealth yourself. The only class I missed out there is Priest, and if you're specced right you can use Holy Nova, all of which will bring the Rogue out of stealth as well.
Usually, of course, the first hint you get that a rogue is there is when he ambushes/Gouge/Saps you, by which point either he's out of stealth or you're stunned, so Perception is either useless or you can't use it because you're incapacitated. It's good for duels and that's it.
Anyway, as for rerolling, I personally wouldn't bother. It's a very slight boost to one specific spec. If that's really worth another three months of your life just to get back to the position you're already in, then go for it I guess, but to be honest it's a huge price for a tiny benefit. And Blizzard may well fix it in any case.
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I heard that AOE debuffs that do no damage don't work anymore for destealthing people (eg demo shout.)
Plus, wtf? Like you can just get rage to spam demo shout? Plenty of times in PVP I've known a rogue has just restealthed but I have no way to spam demo shout enough to find him. Bloodrage is 1 demo shout.
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09/04/06, 1:29 PM
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#25
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Piston Honda
Undead Warlock
Neptulon (EU)
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Originally Posted by Rz
I heard that AOE debuffs that do no damage don't work anymore for destealthing people (eg demo shout.)
Plus, wtf? Like you can just get rage to spam demo shout? Plenty of times in PVP I've known a rogue has just restealthed but I have no way to spam demo shout enough to find him. Bloodrage is 1 demo shout.
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If he's Vanishing you really ought to have him Rended. If he's got you in such a good stunlock that you haven't even got a Rend off, you'll have tons of rage from being hit so much.
edit: and the other point still stands. Perception is useless against Priests, Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, Warriors, Shamans and Paladins, and it's only useful against druids some of the time. It is only consistently useful against Rogues, which makes it hugely situational.
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09/04/06, 2:26 PM
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#26
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This could be anything
Symbul.6982
Blood Elf Paladin
No WoW Account (EU)
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To carry on with the derailment, I stand fast on Perception being useful. Why? Because it's the only thing that will take away my opener. You're not going to catch me with IAE spamming unless you already know where I am. If I want I can just wait until you get tired of running around spinning in mid-air spamming IAE. Demo shout, as noted, costs rage which is not in endless supply (bar 41pt Arms :lol:) and the same applies to it as IAE spamming. Only helps you if you already know where I am.
Perception is not a top-tier PvP racial for sure. WotF, WS, Escape Artist and Stoneform are all better although only two of them are available to mages ofc. But catching a Rogue preemptively at 15-20yard range (actual distance varies mostly by lag) is not to be scoffed at, and it will win you the fight unless the Rogue vanishes and sprints away. But that's 2x 5 minute (less with talents) cooldowns gone to counter a 2 minute (or is it 3m?) racial and he hasn't even touched you yet. Bad trade for the Rogue. Beats dying in outdoor pvp I suppose but in BGs you won't see it.
It's only occasionally and Rogues learned to pay attention to it a long time ago but I'm not taking "It ain't useful" for an answer. ;)
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I heard that AOE debuffs that do no damage don't work anymore for destealthing people (eg demo shout.)
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Resisted aoe more like it, though I neglected to keep track of the change. It's not as if rogues resist aoe all the time.
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09/04/06, 2:33 PM
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#27
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Piston Honda
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by Zephro
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Originally Posted by Rz
I heard that AOE debuffs that do no damage don't work anymore for destealthing people (eg demo shout.)
Plus, wtf? Like you can just get rage to spam demo shout? Plenty of times in PVP I've known a rogue has just restealthed but I have no way to spam demo shout enough to find him. Bloodrage is 1 demo shout.
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If he's Vanishing you really ought to have him Rended. If he's got you in such a good stunlock that you haven't even got a Rend off, you'll have tons of rage from being hit so much.
edit: and the other point still stands. Perception is useless against Priests, Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, Warriors, Shamans and Paladins, and it's only useful against druids some of the time. It is only consistently useful against Rogues, which makes it hugely situational.
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Plenty of ways to deal with Rend or Deep Wounds. He can Rupture+Crippling or Blind me and back off until Rend runs out (doesn't even need a Vanish), he can be a Dwarf, or if he's good he can Vanish right after a Rend tick then re-open before the next tick.
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09/04/06, 2:49 PM
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#28
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Shadowsong (EU)
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Originally Posted by Zephro
edit: and the other point still stands. Perception is useless against Priests, Hunters, Warlocks, Mages, Warriors, Shamans and Paladins, and it's only useful against druids some of the time. It is only consistently useful against Rogues, which makes it hugely situational.
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Ah, but WotF is useless against Rogues, Mages, Hunters, Shamans, and Paladins, and is only marginally useful against Warriors - yet many people still consider it to be the best racial ever.
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09/04/06, 3:07 PM
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#29
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Glass Joe
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I'd rather respec daggers than give up escape artist to be completely honest. Furthermore, with the revamp of scaling stats in TBC, I don't think +5 swords is going to be as meaningful in a few months as it is now.
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09/04/06, 3:11 PM
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#30
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Piston Honda
Human Death Knight
Khadgar
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Ah, but WotF is useless against Rogues, Mages, Hunters, Shamans, and Paladins, and is only marginally useful against Warriors - yet many people still consider it to be the best racial ever.
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To be fair, Fear is the most common CC in battlegrounds by far. Probably because it's the only AoE one.
Between Psychic Scream, Howl of Terror and Int Shout I feel like every single time there is a group vs group engagement there is an AoE fear bomb dropped, oftentimes more than one.
Plus since I absolutely hate Warlocks (Poly heals the target but goddamn Seduce doesn't? How the hell is Poly + Nuke any different from Seduce + nuke?), being able to break Fear or Seduce would be so nice.
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