Can we talk about 4H agro yet? - Page 2

• Nemesis · 09/05/06, 7:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mippo

A perfect example is if you Mocking Blow and follow it up with a Taunt, the majority of the time when the Taunt icon wears off it will run after the previous tank, even if he is practically already at the next Horsemen.

I'm not sure on the mechanics but Mocking Blow forces the mob to attack you, wouldn't using Taunt during this period invalidate any threat gain? Since Taunt would check the mobs current target and give you his threat level (aka your own).

Originally Posted by Mippo

Considering the way Taunt currently works, and that the other warrior wasn't even in range of the Horsemen when the Taunt icon was up to pull agro, how can you possibly explain how that Warrior got agro after the Taunt icon wears off if Taunt worked normally on the Four Horsemen encounter?

Going further with the above (mine) interpretation of the interaction between Taunt and Mocking Blow, wouldn't it also be logical for the Horseman to go back to the warrior highest on his aggro list as soon as all effects that force him to attack a certain person wear off. Because the person he is attacking right now is somewhere really low on the actual threat list > at Mocking Blow threat + whatever you did in between mocking blow and taunt wearing off; which is probably less than the previous tank had

I've never seen an unsuccessful swap after a successful Taunt by a tank on this encounter. If Taunt worked normally on this encounter, that would be pretty much impossible. The odds of every single warrior always turning off attack on time is practically 0.

I think this could be explained by the changes to the Taunt mechanic in the last minipatch.
With the old taunt, yes, the new warrior had to make sure he overcame the 110% of the old warrior and any hits by this old warrior would make that harder and probably fuck it up. With the new Taunt he would keep aggro even if he did nothing (providing the old warrior didn't do anything either).

Originally Posted by Mippo

Furthermore, take it one step further and TRY to pull agro after a successful Taunt. I've tried to, and I've never been able to whereas on every other boss in game, I can have the mob revert back to me if I want to. An additional X% of agro is not hard to overcome during the Taunt icon if you unload and the other tank has his attacks miss.

Seems to be easily explained by the new taunt also. Previously all you had to do was stay ahead of the warrior that taunted, who had to get to 130% of your threat level to keep aggro after a taunt. New Taunt, new rules. However this should probably be tested a bit more, to see if there's a real difference between 4H and other bosses, POST PATCH. At this point old observations are probably moot.

Originally Posted by Mippo

I'm pretty sure Blizzard knows that the swap is very important to the encounter and that the odds of so many Warriors successfully swapping that many times is pretty much not going to happen so yeah I think it's very likely they changed the way Taunt works on this one specific encounter.

On top of that being a bitch to code, it seems more likely that they changed the behavior of Taunt altogether.

Originally Posted by Mippo

Basically, I think each Horsemen has a separate list much like Patchwerk does for the Hateful Strike tank. The Horsemen list is simply capped at 1 person, and Taunt gets you on the list. What that means is that when the next tank comes up and Taunts, it knocks the previous Tank off the list which would result in a pretty smooth transition between Tanks. It's also possible the list has some bonus agro associated with it above and beyond what you would normally get from a Taunt.
The problem occurs in the fact that it appears ONLY Taunt gets you on the list (and the druid equivalent). Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout do not put you on that list so the "weird" agro occurs when Mocking Blow and Challenging Shout are used. Furthermore it appears using Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout prior to a Taunt has a good chance of that Taunt not working correctly and not getting you on the list.
If you asked your tanks which form of Taunt they used on a transition that "messed up" you'll likely find your answer. The easy solution is to just not use Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout at all and you'll likely see the abnormalities in the tank transitions vanish.
I think the reason they coded the list to only work from Taunt, and not Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout is because they intended for Taunts not to be resisted on the encounter and that aspect of the encounter is likely bugged.

See above, if my interpretation of taunt and mocking blow interaction is correct then yes, using mocking blow prior to taunting would create problems. This has nothing to do with mocking blow or challenging shout not working correctly but with the changes to Taunt.
Don't compare Challenging Shout and Mocking Blow to Taunt, whilst they all force a mob to attack you the underlying mechanics are vastly different.
As it is right now both Challenging Shout and Mocking Blow give you a fixed amount of threat in addition to forcing a mob to attack you for a set period of time.
Taunt gives you an amount of threat equal to that of the person currently being attacked by the mob, then forces the mob to attack you . If someone breaks thru the 110% or 130% barrier before the Taunt icon wears off, the mobb goes to them when it does, otherwise it sticks to you.

Phoenix · 09/05/06, 7:36 AM

I'm pretty sure the answer above is correct. If you mocking blow/challenging shout then taunt whilst the debuff is up, what happens is the mob is forced to attack you by the mocking blow/challenging shout but those abilities, unlike taunt, don't raise your threat to the mob's previous target - they simply give you a small amount of threat.

When you then taunt it checks for who currently has aggro and gives you their threat - that person is going to be you so nothing changes except keeping the mob on you for the duration of the de-buff. As soon as that runs out the old tank half way across the room is 130% over your threat so off he trots.

The only way round it is to use mocking blow/challenging shout if your taunt gets resisted but don't re-taunt whilst the blow/shout de-buff is still up, wait for it to wear off. As soon as it wears off, the horseman's target will transfer to the old tank and then you can taunt and gain the old tank's threat value.

Sticks · 09/05/06, 7:45 AM

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I'm pretty sure the answer above is correct. If you mocking blow/challenging shout then taunt whilst the debuff is up, what happens is the mob is forced to attack you by the mocking blow/challenging shout but those abilities, unlike taunt, don't raise your threat to the mob's previous target - they simply give you a small amount of threat.

When you then taunt it checks for who currently has aggro and gives you their threat - that person is going to be you so nothing changes except keeping the mob on you for the duration of the de-buff. As soon as that runs out the old tank half way across the room is 130% over your threat so off he trots.

The only way round it is to use mocking blow/challenging shout if your taunt gets resisted but don't re-taunt whilst the blow/shout de-buff is still up, wait for it to wear off. As soon as it wears off, the horseman's target will transfer to the old tank and then you can taunt and gain the old tank's threat value.

This is the behaviour that I see on 4h and all other mobs that I use taunt on and have just assumed this was the reason for a while now. However, trying to land a taunt after mocking blow wears off and before it goes out of range on Australian ping is really not fun.

Mippo · 09/05/06, 7:53 AM

It still has a high probability of running after the other tank if you Taunt after the Mocking Blow icon wears off so it has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction of Mocking Blow and Taunt.

• Nemesis · 09/05/06, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mippo

It still has a high probability of running after the other tank if you Taunt after the Mocking Blow icon wears off so it has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction of Mocking Blow and Taunt.

From a logical point of view, whats the most likely: Blizzard changing the entire mechanic for one single encounter even tho most of what you said was adressed and explained by the new Taunt implementation. OR Lag/changing debuffs pushing off a mocking blow icon while the mob is still under its effect and therefore messing up Taunt OR What I like to call human error.

Also 'high probability' and 'absolutely nothing' in the same sentence <shiver>
I assume you went and tested this in between my post and your last response?

Mippo · 09/05/06, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Originally Posted by Mippo

It still has a high probability of running after the other tank if you Taunt after the Mocking Blow icon wears off so it has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction of Mocking Blow and Taunt.

From a logical point of view, whats the most likely: Blizzard changing the entire mechanic for one single encounter even tho most of what you said was adressed and explained by the new Taunt implementation. OR Lag/changing debuffs pushing off a mocking blow icon while the mob is still under its effect and therefore messing up Taunt OR What I like to call human error.

Also 'high probability' and 'absolutely nothing' in the same sentence <shiver>
I assume you went and tested this in between my post and your last response?

They don't have to change the way Taunt works to change the way it affects an encounter. They already have the capability to make a 2nd list on a mob as evidenced by Patchwerk. All they would have to do is apply the same coding to the Four Horsemen and change the variables of how the list works.

Casting "Taunt" puts on you on the list which is 1 person long. The next person to cast "Taunt" would take your place on the list. It's pretty simple, guarantees smooth transitions for the encounter, and doesn't require them "changing the entire mechanic".

And yes, I do think it's logical that they would do that. On an encounter where an unsuccessful swap can wipe a raid, it makes sense to add in coding that prevents that from happening. This addresses the agro aspect of the swap, the only problem is that they didn't implement the +chance to hit for Taunt to prevent Resists in which case the encounter would've worked perfectly.

I'm not exactly sure what is wrong with high probability and absolutely nothing in the same sentence.. It doesn't always happen so it's simply a high probability of happening and it happens regardless of when you cast Taunt and Mocking Blow so there is absolutely no correlation between the two. Maybe you speak another form of English?

Shik · 09/05/06, 9:06 AM

It would make life a lot easier for us if they decided to make all the 'taunt' abilities of warriors, druids and soon to be paladins actually work the same way.

Too much to ask though.

• Nemesis · 09/05/06, 9:12 AM

What you seem to be completely blind to is that Taunt WAS changed in a 1.11 mini-patch and shortly after the 4H got killed.
As Xi said, Taunt works on the 4H exactly like it would / should on every other boss in the game.
Smooth transitions are guaranteed by players taunting at the right time and not adding mocking blow the to equation, why bother with a secondary list?
So now Blizzard is coding encounters in ways that you can't even fuck up anymore? 'Hey unsuccessful tank swaps are wiping raids, lets code it so it doesnt happen anymore rather than making raids execute it better.' >> GG
So far everything you said/argued about can be perfectly explained within the limits of the new taunt mechanic, yet you keep insisting that they must have somehow recoded the 4H, coincidentally right when they recoded Taunt.
This second list, what does it entail, the person on the list always has aggro? In that case you could go taunt-autoattackoff and never lose aggro? I suggest someone gives it a test on their next 4H attempt; let a warrior taunt and do nothing while dps unloads. If the warrior never - ever loses aggro that would lend some credit to your secondary list theories.
I'm all for sticking to ones beliefs so I'll leave you to yours, personally I'm not a sucker for conspiracy theories or insisting the easiest explanation has to be wrong based on it being the easiest.

Mippo · 09/05/06, 10:06 AM

There is a huge difference even after the patch. The patch made it EASIER to retain agro after a Taunt, it did not make it a guarantee. You can still mess up a switch if the first Warrior is still agroing while the Taunt icon is active. It still works like that even after the 1.11 patch.

Prior to the 1.11 patch the Warrior that was Taunting had to surpass the 10% agro differential in order to retain agro after the Taunt icon wore off. After the 1.11 patch, they no longer need to surpass that 10% agro differential BUT if the Warrior that previously had agro surpasses the Taunting Warrior by 10%, it would still revert back to the original tank.

I will test it further to be absolutely sure, but that's not what I have seen from the Four Horsemen encounter. If I try to get agro during a Taunt on any mob in the game, I can do so depending on the difference in agro between myself and the other Warrior while the Taunt icon is active.

Even after the 1.11 patch, if the Warriors are not paying attention a mob can revert back after a successful taunt. The difference is that I have never seen it happen on the Four Horsemen encounter. Considering how many swaps are taking place, I find it highly coincedental that I see it happen regularly on other mobs, but not on the Four Horsemen despite the fact there are exponentially more occurences for it to occur on the 4h as opposed to other encounters.

Furthermore, there are certain abnormalities in how Taunt works that I have seen on the encounter, yet have not seen on any other encounter in game.

It's easy for you, and a raid leader that does not play a Warrior to chalk them up to "human error", but it's not so easy to do so when you are the one playing the Warrior and you know that there was no "human error".

Sticks · 09/05/06, 10:36 AM

We had 3 attempts in a row today where the horse went back to the old target after a successful taunt(read non resisted rather that the conventional meaning of success :( ). I don't know exactly why, but the tank in question swears blind that he didn't do anything that should have put the horse back on him, say extra shield slams or sunders after the taunt, so at very most it may have been 1 autoattack due to lag. So there may be some alternate mechanic on 4h, but I'm not really convinced yet.

• moz · 09/05/06, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Even after the 1.11 patch, if the Warriors are not paying attention a mob can revert back after a successful taunt. The difference is that I have never seen it happen on the Four Horsemen encounter. Considering how many swaps are taking place, I find it highly coincedental that I see it happen regularly on other mobs, but not on the Four Horsemen despite the fact there are exponentially more occurences for it to occur on the 4h as opposed to other encounters.

No, the horsemen can indeed revert back after a successful taunt.

Derketo · 09/05/06, 11:54 AM

It's pretty obvious taunt was changed in general, I'm not sure that anything was changed in addition to that for 4h.

Zagzil · 09/05/06, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

I've never seen an unsuccessful swap after a successful Taunt by a tank on this encounter. If Taunt worked normally on this encounter, that would be pretty much impossible. The odds of every single warrior always turning off attack on time is practically 0.

I've seen it happen multiple times, actually, where warriors didn't turn off auto attack and were slow to run out, then got aggro even when taunt was successful.

Mippo · 09/05/06, 12:46 PM

Yes, it can revert back after a successful taunt which goes back to my original post. If you previously had a resist, used Mocking Blow or Challenging Shout, that's when I notice the mob goes back to a previous tank.

However, I've never seen it happen without one of the above happening first. Have you ever walked up to a Four Horsemen, successfully taunted on the first try, and had it revert back to the original tank?

Not taunting after a resist, not using Mocking Blow, not using Challenging Shout at all, simply walking up, hitting Taunt and it landing, and having it go back to the original tank afterwards?

There is a big difference between the two. I've used Challenging Shout in the past, maintained agro after Challenging Shout wore off, then a few seconds later when my Taunt was up again, used Taunt and after that Taunt wore off, had it run to the other tank that was almost at the next mob.

Challenging Shout was off for about 4 seconds and I had agro on the mob after it wore off, I hit Taunt while the other tank is already 20+ yards away, and had it go back to that tank when Taunt wore off......

If you watch it closely enough, there are specific examples like this that clearly do not work normally. When they do happen, most people chalk them up to "human error" but it's not. It clearly works differently the only question is, more specifically, how does Taunt work on the encounter. My guess is the list I mentioned in my other post but really, I have no clue the only thing I know is that it works differently then other encounters.

♦ Praetorian · 09/05/06, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

However, I've never seen it happen without one of the above happening first. Have you ever walked up to a Four Horsemen, successfully taunted on the first try, and had it revert back to the original tank?

Yes. Very first transition, no Challenging or Mocking involved.

Tank A has Mograine. Tank B taunts. Tank A hits one autoattack. Tank B sunders and crits a Heroic Strike. Tank A moves away. Taunt wears off. Mograine runs after Tank A.

Yes, that one autoattack shouldn't have happened, but that still defies everything I know about taunt since 1.11, unless I have some deeper misconception.