Rating? - Page 3

Rabid Rob · 09/07/06, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

I'm confused.

Yeah, we're in the middle of a convo here, dude, don't forget all the previous posts. Given the current mechanic of hunter talents, itemization, buffs, the implication is hunters will be getting to 50% crit in the raid setting.

The rating system will make it a little harder, but all the Agi buffs are getting overwhelming.

Which I think entirely supports the rumors hinting at complete reworking of hunter mechanics in the form of the Agi -> Rap nerf, etc.

So on the one hand we'd end up doing too much damage, but with a complete rework, will we do enough to be worth bringing along? We're essentially a pure ranged DPS class, in competition with a superior melee DPS class and another DPS class with considerable utility. It's gonna be a scary ride! :)

• frmorrison · 09/07/06, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kollar

Also, one of my friends tell me that Hunter's currently only get 1 RAP per AGI on the servers.

If Hunters are on the Alpha server, what do they have for talents (the current ones or just no talents)?.

If 1 agility becomes 1 RAP, then I hope the agi/crit ratio goes down.

Oaken · 09/07/06, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

I guess I can't see why people are all that shocked that their gear with ilvl less than 70 would get replaced on the way to level 70. Don Julio's is a level 65 item. Tier 1 gear is ilvl 66. Tier 2 is ilvl 76, so you will probably keep a lot of that gear or better until you start picking up epics at level 70. Where's the surprise in that?

I don't think you are looking at those items very closely:

Sure-Step Boots
+16 Agi
+24 Sta
+32 AP
(roughly 0.5% crit or equivalent and 48AP)

Bloodfang Boots
+6str
+25 Agi
+17 Sta
+10 FR
+1% dodge
(just under 1% crit and 31 AP)

I'm going to guess there are more than a few rogues willing to trade 9 agility for 17AP. And this is T2 versus a blue quest reward that it appears to be possible to get at level 60-62, not level 70.

I do think its pretty funny that it wasn't that long ago people were using ilvls to claim Blizzard would not obsolete T3 gear very fast. It was based of course on the faulty assumption that ilevel formulas would not change:

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7635

Hindsight being, of course, 20-20.

Edit: missed strength on Bloodfang. My point still stands though. :) BWL gear equivalents will show up very quickly. Will be interesting to see how quickly people are having similar debates about Naxx sidegrades/upgrades.

• frmorrison · 09/07/06, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Oaken

Sure-Step Boots (roughly 0.5% crit or equivalent and 48AP)

Bloodfang Boots
+6 Str
+25 Agi
+17 Sta
+10 FR
+1% dodge
(just under 1% crit and 31 AP)

There is 6 strength on BF boots. So .5% crit 1.75% dodge vs. 17 AP and 7 stam.

I would prefer the blue boots over BF for group dps and the BF boots for leveling (that dodge is handy for something and the armor is a little higher).

However, that 1% dodge will turn into a rating, so it will weaken as you level, making the blue boots better for leveling at a certain point.

Gort · 09/07/06, 3:40 PM

It's worth noting that the BF boots kinda blow goat chunks, and many of their points are spent in an inexplicable--though occasionally handy--and expensive dodge bonus.

Degorn · 09/07/06, 5:50 PM

So flat melee/spell crit/hit items scale down with level as they should, but...what about Hand of Justice?

impossible! · 09/07/06, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Degorn

So flat melee/spell crit/hit items scale down with level as they should, but...what about Hand of Justice?

I honestly doubt that we'll ever truly be rid of Hand of Justice. It'll be Spring of 2009, everyone will be level 100 and people will still be sporting that trinket. :V:

◊ Shalas · 09/07/06, 7:01 PM

At least you'll be able to solo farm it instead of needing a friend or two.

Zeboim · 09/07/06, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rabid Rob

OK I'm crying now. Well, this is what I'm telling folks so the can freak out now not later, and prepare:

First off, some of you when you see this are gonna freak out, scream bloody murder etc etc... Well, to fight mudflation, they gotta do this, and to stop us from having 50% crit at lvl 70, and finally, to give us incentive to get gear sooner rather than later. I really don't see any way to get around doing something like this, it'll hurt at first, but pay off later.

Leaked ALPHA info:
Crit bonus Level of player:
1 60
.92 61
.87 62
.81 63
.75 64

So it appears to be a steady .07 decrease in effectiveness per level, assuming blizz's usual rounding oddness. The 1% to crit gets converted to a crit rating of, say, 100. That stays constant, but the ammount of crit rating required to get 1% crit bonus increases enough each level to chop off .07 crit per level.

This means items with stats converted to the rating system will decay in effectiveness faster than oher items.

Stats that I know are being converted to ratings:
tohit - crit - spell tohit - spell crit

Stats that I haven't seen confirmed as being converted yet (but I bet they are!):
parry - dodge - defense (I think this is the new "resilience" rating)

Yeah... warriors get the worst of it I think.

An item example:
Don Julio's Band
11 stamina
1 crit
1 tohit
16 attack power

This item has 2 abilities that are decaying as I level. Assuming I don't respec to Lightning Reflexes, it'll be outmoded by an Agi ring I have at level 61. At level 64 it'll have lost 25% off both the crit and tohit, making other stat based epics it once outshined quite superior.

So be prepared! For the expac, the items that will last the longest will be the non-rating converted ones. Strong rating gear will give a boost for the first few levels, but then you'll want those stats.

Please tell me if I got this wrong.
From what I understand, x amount of crit rating will be 1% crit at level 60 and 0.3% crit at level 70. If this is correct, then at level 75, no matter how much crit rating you get, you will not get any addiditonal crit. That would mean either this is a temporary mechanical fix for this xpac only, or blizzard screwed up, or i misunderstood.

Celandro · 09/07/06, 8:18 PM

Leveling up causing you to be less effective against the same mob is an obvious problem they should fix. Basing it on target level somehow would work pretty well. If they are using it to slow down leveling, increasing the exp required to level substantially and the exp for killing mobs higher level than 60 would do the trick.

Getting less powerful as you level up is an obvious design flaw.

Dulahey · 09/07/06, 8:21 PM

I'm guessing the decay is based on the item level.

14 crit rating on a lvl 60 item = 1% crit but only .3% crit at level 70.
14 crit rating on a lvl 70 item = 1% crit at level 70.

Or lvl 70 gear will simply have higher crit ratings.

Pater · 09/07/06, 8:43 PM

I think it's the latter Dulahey. I think it will be like the stat --> bonus calculation right now. A L60 mage gets 1% crit from 59.5 INT. At L70, that number will be higher.

In BC, a L60 mage will get 1% spell crit from (say) 50 "spell crti rating." A L70 mage will get need more to get the same 1% crit.

Eye of the Beast will always have 100 crit rating. It will just be more worthwhile for a L60 mage than a L70 mage.

Zeboim · 09/07/06, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by Pater

I think it's the latter Dulahey. I think it will be like the stat --> bonus calculation right now. A L60 mage gets 1% crit from 59.5 INT. At L70, that number will be higher.

In BC, a L60 mage will get 1% spell crit from (say) 50 "spell crti rating." A L70 mage will get need more to get the same 1% crit.

Eye of the Beast will always have 100 crit rating. It will just be more worthwhile for a L60 mage than a L70 mage.

I dont think you understand what that means. If 100 crit rating is about 5% crit for level 60, then you will need 333 crit rating at level 70 to get the same 5% crit. Seems fine now, but at level 75, you can have 1,000,000 crit rating and you wont get any higher than 0% crit.

◊ Shalas · 09/07/06, 9:41 PM

Originally Posted by Dulahey

I'm guessing the decay is based on the item level.

14 crit rating on a lvl 60 item = 1% crit but only .3% crit at level 70.
14 crit rating on a lvl 70 item = 1% crit at level 70.

All that'd do is make current gear suck at level 70. It wouldn't actually fix the problem of crit getting stupidly high once you have level 70 gear.

Kytrarewn · 09/07/06, 10:30 PM

I'd bet anything it's based on target's level... it's going to suck if expansion mobs are still +3 or higher, but it makes more sense than nerfing a level 60 item when you're fighting level 60 mobs at level 62.

Hopefully they'll put in custom tooltips for your target (a la Diablo 2) whereby you see "Chance to Hit Thuzadin Necromancer: 98%" or something along those lines, rather than leaving it as the flat "chance to crit against mob of your level: 32%" they have now.

Nite_Moogle · 09/07/06, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dulahey

I'm guessing the decay is based on the item level.

14 crit rating on a lvl 60 item = 1% crit but only .3% crit at level 70.
14 crit rating on a lvl 70 item = 1% crit at level 70.

Or lvl 70 gear will simply have higher crit ratings.

Chances are it'll be like AP where you need more of it to give a certain amount. Hunters don't need 53 agility to get 1% crit at level 1, the amount required scales up by level. 14 crit rating may be an effective 1% crit at level 60, but it may only be .75% crit at 70. I'll be incredibly surprised if it doesn't work in this fashion.

◊ Kalman · 09/07/06, 11:57 PM

Expect 14 rating to scale to 0.5% at 70.

Zeboim · 09/08/06, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Expect 14 rating to scale to 0.5% at 70.

So its an expoential? If thats so then each point of crit rating should give you

(64/14)*2^(-x/10) crit%

where x is your level

This model also fits with the observed reductions posted earlier where 1% crit at level 60 is

1% at 60
0.933 at 61
0.871 at 62
0.812 at 63
0.758 at 64

(it has a slight difference of 0.01% is some cases)

Mo · 09/08/06, 1:07 PM

A much simpler formula, though it doesn't fit the reported values quite as well, would just have it require one more point of crit rating per level. It does make 14 cr worth just a bit more than 0.5% at 70 though. It does somewhat make sense that it'd be a simpler calcuation since ap -> dps is so simple, and it fits pretty well.

14 / (14 + lvl - 60) crit%

1% at 60
0.933 at 61
0.875 at 62
0.824 at 63
0.778 at 64

0.583 at 70

No idea how this would work pre-60, which is a reasonable question about the crit rating system in general (though not nearly as important as how our 60 epics scale). Will bhb be worth 3 or 4% crit if someone gets it at 55? Anyway, my formula obviously doesn't work for pre-60 stuff.

Toabo · 09/08/06, 2:35 PM

Hmmm. So if all the +hit and +crit gear gets scaled down as you level, I assume that makes the +hit and +crit you get from talents more valuable since that will always stay the same? The +5% hit to Empowered Frostbolt doesn't seem nearly as useless now.

◊ Praetorian · 09/08/06, 3:14 PM

If you have a 30 agi ring right now, that 30 agi will give you less crit, less dodge, and less % mitigation worth of armor at level 70 than it does at level 60.

This change is simply standardizing that built-in scaling so it also applies to items with pure +crit or +dodge on them. If they didn't, then those stats would actually become more valuable if anything -- +1% crit is worth a larger number of points of agility at level 70 than at level 60.

Papajan · 09/08/06, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jaerel

I suspect crit rating is just a distilled version of crit similar to how you gain crit from agility and intellect. In that context:

At level 60, your converted crit rating will give you 10% crit against level 60 targets.
That same crit rating will give you 9.2% crit against level 61 targets (using the numbers from the example).

At level 61, your converted crit rating will give you 10% crit against level 60 targets.
That same crit rating will give you 9.2% crit against level 61 targets.

I got the impression that crit/int is determined entirely on the caster side of things, irrespective of the target. It would be nice for farming to gain more power against lower level mobs, but terrible for fighting boss mobs.

I wonder if they compute it (for crit anyway) as something like (crit rating) * (int conversion) * 5 / (expected int). In other words, I wonder if the amount of crit per crit rating is in a fixed ratio with crit per int. Then in my head I can say that crit rating is like int without the mana and with a multiplier.

• Karakas · 09/08/06, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Papajan

Originally Posted by Jaerel

I suspect crit rating is just a distilled version of crit similar to how you gain crit from agility and intellect. In that context:

At level 60, your converted crit rating will give you 10% crit against level 60 targets.
That same crit rating will give you 9.2% crit against level 61 targets (using the numbers from the example).

At level 61, your converted crit rating will give you 10% crit against level 60 targets.
That same crit rating will give you 9.2% crit against level 61 targets.

I got the impression that crit/int is determined entirely on the caster side of things, irrespective of the target. It would be nice for farming to gain more power against lower level mobs, but terrible for fighting boss mobs.

I wonder if they compute it (for crit anyway) as something like (crit rating) * (int conversion) * 5 / (expected int). In other words, I wonder if the amount of crit per crit rating is in a fixed ratio with crit per int. Then in my head I can say that crit rating is like int without the mana and with a multiplier.

Crit, at the moment at least, is also dependent on your target's level (and your weapon skill). As you level up, your chance to crit/hit on lower level mobs increase even if somehow you were able to adjust your stats so that they were exactly the same as a lower level

• Chicken · 09/08/06, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Karakas

Originally Posted by Papajan

I got the impression that crit/int is determined entirely on the caster side of things, irrespective of the target. It would be nice for farming to gain more power against lower level mobs, but terrible for fighting boss mobs.

I wonder if they compute it (for crit anyway) as something like (crit rating) * (int conversion) * 5 / (expected int). In other words, I wonder if the amount of crit per crit rating is in a fixed ratio with crit per int. Then in my head I can say that crit rating is like int without the mana and with a multiplier.

Crit, at the moment at least, is also dependent on your target's level (and your weapon skill). As you level up, your chance to crit/hit on lower level mobs increase even if somehow you were able to adjust your stats so that they were exactly the same as a lower level

Then again there's two possible reasons this could have:

A. This is because on lower level mobs your agility adds more crit in comparison.
B. This is because lower level mobs have a lower defense skill, and thus automattically a higher chance to get crit.

The difference is quite large between these two. If lower level mobs effectively need less agility to get an extra percent crit on, that'd bode well for how rating is going to work (As in, no weaker as you level up effect), if it doesn't that wouldn't bode well. ;)

Murr · 09/08/06, 5:01 PM

Basic idea behind crit rating:
Be able to itemize so you can ramp up crit and hit (and other percentages) at earlier levels without capping out endgame players. It also gives more flexibility in the item system when you can add half a crit instead of another full % point.

Blackhand's Breadth, going off the picture, is 28 Crit Rating. 2% crit at 60, by all accounts somewhere between 1-1.5% crit at 70 based off the math we've seen.

At 70, say you kill Rend Blackhand's Daddy in Outlandrock Spire, turn his head into Thrall, and you get Blackhand's Superbreadth, which is +40 crit rating. Same item concept but you've got a higher budget at 70 and can throw more rating on there. Works just like stats now - scales as you level.

Consider the item flexibility when you aren't just looking at choosing between an item with 30 ap, 1 crit, 1 hit and an item with 0 ap, 2 crit, 1 hit, and a scenario in the expansion when an item has 30 ap, 14 crit rating, 14 hit rating, and an item with 0 ap, 22 crit rating, 13 hit rating..etc.

Lots more potential for micro, if anything.