I can't believe someone has to say this here but... +hit% doesn't affect dodge, it reduces your miss rate. These are two completely independent things. Dodges are innate to the roll table which is why Blizzard added a talent to reduce dodges on specials as itemization doesn't currently provide a means to do this.

So, yes, you DO want 6% or more +hit% as otherwise you will completely miss a special, which is different from having a special dodged.

What do folks think about using Renataki's for raiding?

Maybe I'm in the wrong but I find that using is (combat daggers) helps generate CPs fast and get SnD going earlier for longer, provides great burst for those situations when it's required (controllable burst also) and suits itself to wide variety of situations.

I'm not a math guru, but I've asked a math person in my guild and he came back with Renataki's as better than most other pre BWL trinkets as long as its use its maximized.

What do the math folks here think?

What he means is it is silly to say 1 crit is 10 points, 1 hit is 9 points. The values change as you get different gear. Now you can generalize to get a guess what it will do, but it isn't the best way to go about it.

For example, 1 crit at 35% crit is .74% white damage increase. So you aren't always correct in saying crit is .77% white dps increase. Things scale up and down with other changes (that is why spreadsheets are handy).

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6692

22 pages of good stuff. Any number of responses in that thread can answer both Disco's and Scanlon's questions.

I think Renataki's is 60 energy every 300 seconds. It's 1 backstab every 5 minutes.

Compare that to Earthstrike, which will add 280 AP for 20 seconds (so 3-4 backstabs at boosted AP, plus 280 AP bonus to your white damage over that time frame) - every 2 minutes. Which is almost always macroed with Blade Flurry to boost that bonus, and typically once per fight is macroed with Adrenaline Rush as well.

Compare that to BHB. Model it as a 2% bonus backstab on every backstab, plus white damage bonuses (close enough to true for government work). The 2% per backstab, with 10 BS per minute, equals 50 BS per 5 minutes, equals 1 whole extra backstab - and we've ignored the white damage bonuses BHB provides.

Renataki's is just a poor trinket in anything but PvP - farm tea and wear useful trinkets instead.

Renataki's has a 3 minute cooldown, not 5. No doubt RCT is of little benefit in a raiding environment compared to BHB or ES though.

I've heard of nothing but praise from ES, especially with AR being open to dagger rogues, being able to combine ES/BF/AR enabled some of our rogues to significantly improve their damage than if they didnt, and aparently those ones with DFT/ES dont want KoTS either o.o

fair enough, ty for the link.

How come no one rates Earth Strike? I have found it to be one of the biggest DPS items I have. It can be used every two minutes with flurry, and every 6 with AR(if you hold up AR for a minute). If you look at the 280AP every 2 mins its about a 48AP passive trinket, but combined with cooldowns its quite insane.

AR is on a 5 minute timer. Unless I'm in bizarro world.

Crawling out from the sheets(being sick during the last bit of summer fucking sucks).

Rogue trinkets are as follows:

Kiss of the Spider > Slayer's Crest > Drake Fang Talisman > Hand of Justice == Earthstrike > BHB > Rune of the Guard Captain > Dire Maul trinket

Earthstrike works out to ~47AP as a passive trinket, but if you're willing to put in the extra work to make sure it's always linked to your Blade Flurry you can get enough extra out of it to be better than Hand of Justice. The main factor is how much work you're willing to put in and whether or not you're willing to make sure it's maximized.

AR is indeed on a 5 minute timer now.

It's better than Hand of Justice/ES by a fair margin, to the points where someone forgets to swap it in on Patchwerk are obvious.

I'd really like to do the math to see how trinkets hold up when you save them for cooldowns, and vice versa.

ie, I use badge of the swarmguard and -love it- with AR, and during the beginning sequences of the fight its very powerful. I normally save blade flurry to always go with it (losing ~45 seconds of BF cooldown) to try and maximize my damage. As it stands, would the multiplicative effect from the badge be powerful enough to save my AR 1 minute in order to go with the third badge use? Not really sure, but personally I really enjoy hitting them all together, though I know thats not necessarily the best thing for PvE dps :)

Meh, 3 minutes for Renataki's or 5 minutes, it's still a mediocre trinket.

That slayers crest trinket will be the best trinket for a long time just because of the way to you can stack it with other cooldowns.

Bladeflurry / SnD / Berzerking / AR and trinket up at the same time, the same way you do it with ES / BotSG, just they are pretty inferior.

Hrm, I think KOTS is gonna be better, as all three of its properties naturally scale with your characters dps output, where as the Slayers Crest (however amazing it is) is going to fall out of favor at some point for either something that scales better or something with even more +AP (thinking BC here!).

One of our rogues had the card equipped on our patchwerk kill.
Lightning Strike (Nature) 4.141 2 %

Considering that he only did 448 DPS on that fight and that it doesn't scale, I would say: it sucks.

Jom Gobbar missed in the above lists.

DFT > JG > HoJ ~= ES

Dang, this was meant to be a question.

Does that list seem right ?

I suspected as much. The only reason I got it myself was that I had gotten cards #2-4 in Silithus when I was grinding texts for my main and I had all but #7 saved in my bank, so I just figured I would try it out. I found it to be great when you have not so great gear. As it IMO should be.

Darkmoon card is good when your gear is terrible (blues), but still worse that HoJ, which is about as obtainable.

I just got my ES this past week, and am still not convinced I will use it over my HoJ, other than in pure Burst situations. I macro'd it to my Blade Flurry skill, which is great, but I still end up not using enough, especially when there are situations where I'm saving BF for multiple mob pulls (ala Firelords in MC).

I'm think ES is best tied to you AR cooldown, giving you all 3 activated effects together (ES/BF/AR).

I played a bit around with the numbers for earthstrike as a preparation for our patchwerk tries. First conclusion: the seal of the dawn is much better :) (like wodin said).

Second conclusion: in a fight where you can activate the trinket pretty quickly you have to recalculate the downtime of the trinket. My assumptions were roughly: 1st activation after 10 seconds, later actions right after the CD has ended. If you play it like that, and you assume 3 to 4 uptimes (fight durations varied from 5 to 7 minutes) the greatest effect you can gain is about 54-56 ap if you model it as a passive trinket. Not to mention the synergies you gain from timing it with BF and AR. The problem is that you often cannot calculate accurately the duration of a fight beforehands :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haste effects post-patch 1.12 are now additive.