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Old 09/05/06, 6:14 PM   #26
Day
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Laughing Skull
Originally Posted by maxpowers
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
You only need about 6% hit to not miss on specials anymore, and you can get 5 of that through talents. After that, +hit is pure white damage increase only. Crit affects both white and yellow attacks and so scales better.
Don't forget that people just figured out that having attacks be dodged does very little to hinder your dps (see Sneak Attacks). Thus you don't *really* need that +6% hit on specials.
I can't believe someone has to say this here but... +hit% doesn't affect dodge, it reduces your miss rate. These are two completely independent things. Dodges are innate to the roll table which is why Blizzard added a talent to reduce dodges on specials as itemization doesn't currently provide a means to do this.

So, yes, you DO want 6% or more +hit% as otherwise you will completely miss a special, which is different from having a special dodged.

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Old 09/05/06, 6:19 PM   #27
Scanlon
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Rogue
 
Cenarion Circle
What do folks think about using Renataki's for raiding?

Maybe I'm in the wrong but I find that using is (combat daggers) helps generate CPs fast and get SnD going earlier for longer, provides great burst for those situations when it's required (controllable burst also) and suits itself to wide variety of situations.

I'm not a math guru, but I've asked a math person in my guild and he came back with Renataki's as better than most other pre BWL trinkets as long as its use its maximized.

What do the math folks here think?

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Old 09/05/06, 6:20 PM   #28
 frmorrison
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Ashstorm
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Originally Posted by discofiend
I still dont understand some things, such as how 1% hit = 1.12% increase in white damage (.01 / .91 = .0109), that's the closest i could come to a similar answer), and Karakas's post helped me understand how 1% crit = 0.01/1.30 = .77% white dps increase.

Is it really that wrong to
a) want to understand how/why things work
b) figure out how to make a better-informed decision because of it?
What he means is it is silly to say 1 crit is 10 points, 1 hit is 9 points. The values change as you get different gear. Now you can generalize to get a guess what it will do, but it isn't the best way to go about it.

For example, 1 crit at 35% crit is .74% white damage increase. So you aren't always correct in saying crit is .77% white dps increase. Things scale up and down with other changes (that is why spreadsheets are handy).

Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'

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Old 09/05/06, 7:11 PM   #29
probiscus
Bald Bull
 
Human Death Knight
 
<QQ>
Kilrogg
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6692

22 pages of good stuff. Any number of responses in that thread can answer both Disco's and Scanlon's questions.

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Old 09/05/06, 7:19 PM   #30
Kalman
Super Macho Man
 
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Orc Shaman
 
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Originally Posted by Scanlon
What do folks think about using Renataki's for raiding?

Maybe I'm in the wrong but I find that using is (combat daggers) helps generate CPs fast and get SnD going earlier for longer, provides great burst for those situations when it's required (controllable burst also) and suits itself to wide variety of situations.

I'm not a math guru, but I've asked a math person in my guild and he came back with Renataki's as better than most other pre BWL trinkets as long as its use its maximized.

What do the math folks here think?
I think Renataki's is 60 energy every 300 seconds. It's 1 backstab every 5 minutes.

Compare that to Earthstrike, which will add 280 AP for 20 seconds (so 3-4 backstabs at boosted AP, plus 280 AP bonus to your white damage over that time frame) - every 2 minutes. Which is almost always macroed with Blade Flurry to boost that bonus, and typically once per fight is macroed with Adrenaline Rush as well.

Compare that to BHB. Model it as a 2% bonus backstab on every backstab, plus white damage bonuses (close enough to true for government work). The 2% per backstab, with 10 BS per minute, equals 50 BS per 5 minutes, equals 1 whole extra backstab - and we've ignored the white damage bonuses BHB provides.

Renataki's is just a poor trinket in anything but PvP - farm tea and wear useful trinkets instead.

Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

Clearly law school has done wonders for me.

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Old 09/05/06, 7:29 PM   #31
mxy
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Stormscale (EU)
Originally Posted by Kalman
Originally Posted by Scanlon
What do folks think about using Renataki's for raiding?

Maybe I'm in the wrong but I find that using is (combat daggers) helps generate CPs fast and get SnD going earlier for longer, provides great burst for those situations when it's required (controllable burst also) and suits itself to wide variety of situations.

I'm not a math guru, but I've asked a math person in my guild and he came back with Renataki's as better than most other pre BWL trinkets as long as its use its maximized.

What do the math folks here think?
I think Renataki's is 60 energy every 300 seconds. It's 1 backstab every 5 minutes.

Compare that to Earthstrike, which will add 280 AP for 20 seconds (so 3-4 backstabs at boosted AP, plus 280 AP bonus to your white damage over that time frame) - every 2 minutes. Which is almost always macroed with Blade Flurry to boost that bonus, and typically once per fight is macroed with Adrenaline Rush as well.

Compare that to BHB. Model it as a 2% bonus backstab on every backstab, plus white damage bonuses (close enough to true for government work). The 2% per backstab, with 10 BS per minute, equals 50 BS per 5 minutes, equals 1 whole extra backstab - and we've ignored the white damage bonuses BHB provides.

Renataki's is just a poor trinket in anything but PvP - farm tea and wear useful trinkets instead.
Renataki's has a 3 minute cooldown, not 5. No doubt RCT is of little benefit in a raiding environment compared to BHB or ES though.

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Old 09/05/06, 8:41 PM   #32
Zerianne
Von Kaiser
 
Murloc Rogue
 
Illidan
DFT > HoJ > BHB > Rune of the Guard Captain (Horde only) > DM Trinky

Best is from left to right, use what you got.

Activated trinkets are ok on trash mobs if you use ItemRack to swap them in and out (especially when you stack them with Blade Flurry), but definitely worry about what your 2 passive trinkets are first. Activated trinkets are basically toys. Except for Kiss of the Spider, that's just hot. :)

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Old 09/05/06, 10:49 PM   #33
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I've heard of nothing but praise from ES, especially with AR being open to dagger rogues, being able to combine ES/BF/AR enabled some of our rogues to significantly improve their damage than if they didnt, and aparently those ones with DFT/ES dont want KoTS either o.o

Originally Posted by Vontre
I don't know anything

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Old 09/05/06, 10:52 PM   #34
discofiend
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Rogue
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by probiscus
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6692

22 pages of good stuff. Any number of responses in that thread can answer both Disco's and Scanlon's questions.
fair enough, ty for the link.

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Old 09/05/06, 11:56 PM   #35
Pixelated
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Blackrock
How come no one rates Earth Strike? I have found it to be one of the biggest DPS items I have. It can be used every two minutes with flurry, and every 6 with AR(if you hold up AR for a minute). If you look at the 280AP every 2 mins its about a 48AP passive trinket, but combined with cooldowns its quite insane.

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Old 09/06/06, 12:13 AM   #36
probiscus
Bald Bull
 
Human Death Knight
 
<QQ>
Kilrogg
AR is on a 5 minute timer. Unless I'm in bizarro world.

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Old 09/06/06, 12:18 AM   #37
• Wodin
Thoroughly Inebriated
 
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Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Crawling out from the sheets(being sick during the last bit of summer fucking sucks).

Rogue trinkets are as follows:

Kiss of the Spider > Slayer's Crest > Drake Fang Talisman > Hand of Justice == Earthstrike > BHB > Rune of the Guard Captain > Dire Maul trinket

Earthstrike works out to ~47AP as a passive trinket, but if you're willing to put in the extra work to make sure it's always linked to your Blade Flurry you can get enough extra out of it to be better than Hand of Justice. The main factor is how much work you're willing to put in and whether or not you're willing to make sure it's maximized.

AR is indeed on a 5 minute timer now.

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Old 09/06/06, 1:08 AM   #38
Kegsta
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by Wodin
Rogue trinkets are as follows:

Kiss of the Spider > Slayer's Crest > Drake Fang Talisman > Hand of Justice == Earthstrike > BHB > Rune of the Guard Captain > Dire Maul trinket
where do you put seal of the dawn in your list for nax (+81AP) better or worse than earthstrike? Because our rogues are currently using earthstrike over it, although we arn't up to the just flat dps fights yet (killed the easy 5 only)

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Old 09/06/06, 1:19 AM   #39
• Wodin
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Mal'Ganis
It's better than Hand of Justice/ES by a fair margin, to the points where someone forgets to swap it in on Patchwerk are obvious.

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Old 09/06/06, 1:51 AM   #40
Xard
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Frostmane
I'd really like to do the math to see how trinkets hold up when you save them for cooldowns, and vice versa.

ie, I use badge of the swarmguard and -love it- with AR, and during the beginning sequences of the fight its very powerful. I normally save blade flurry to always go with it (losing ~45 seconds of BF cooldown) to try and maximize my damage. As it stands, would the multiplicative effect from the badge be powerful enough to save my AR 1 minute in order to go with the third badge use? Not really sure, but personally I really enjoy hitting them all together, though I know thats not necessarily the best thing for PvE dps :)

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Old 09/06/06, 3:01 AM   #41
Kalman
Super Macho Man
 
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Meh, 3 minutes for Renataki's or 5 minutes, it's still a mediocre trinket.

Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.

Clearly law school has done wonders for me.

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Old 09/06/06, 3:17 AM   #42
Samurai
Piston Honda
 
Undead Priest
 
Kazzak (EU)
That slayers crest trinket will be the best trinket for a long time just because of the way to you can stack it with other cooldowns.

Bladeflurry / SnD / Berzerking / AR and trinket up at the same time, the same way you do it with ES / BotSG, just they are pretty inferior.

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Old 09/06/06, 8:50 AM   #43
Faytte
Don Flamenco
 
Troll Rogue
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by Samurai
That slayers crest trinket will be the best trinket for a long time just because of the way to you can stack it with other cooldowns.

Bladeflurry / SnD / Berzerking / AR and trinket up at the same time, the same way you do it with ES / BotSG, just they are pretty inferior.
Hrm, I think KOTS is gonna be better, as all three of its properties naturally scale with your characters dps output, where as the Slayers Crest (however amazing it is) is going to fall out of favor at some point for either something that scales better or something with even more +AP (thinking BC here!).

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

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Old 09/06/06, 9:02 AM   #44
Infenwe
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Magtheridon (EU)
Originally Posted by Wodin
Rogue trinkets are as follows:

Kiss of the Spider > Slayer's Crest > Drake Fang Talisman > Hand of Justice == Earthstrike > BHB > Rune of the Guard Captain > Dire Maul trinket
Where would you put Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom in that list? Obviously it doesn't scale at all, but when I with my alt rogue was combat swords (now daggers with Perdition's, but I haven't had time to test how much of my dps it is now) and 4/8 NS + ZG/AQ20 stuff + Brutaility Blade it was about 3.3% of my total damage. So it's definately up there with BHB until you get at least tier2 as far as I can tell.

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Old 09/06/06, 9:28 AM   #45
 sp00n
banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
One of our rogues had the card equipped on our patchwerk kill.
Lightning Strike (Nature) 4.141 2 %

Considering that he only did 448 DPS on that fight and that it doesn't scale, I would say: it sucks.


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Old 09/06/06, 9:33 AM   #46
 pewsey
hey there good lookin'
 
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Dwarf Shaman
 
Dragonblight
Jom Gobbar missed in the above lists.

DFT > JG > HoJ ~= ES

Dang, this was meant to be a question.

Does that list seem right ?

Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)

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Old 09/06/06, 9:33 AM   #47
Infenwe
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Priest
 
Magtheridon (EU)
I suspected as much. The only reason I got it myself was that I had gotten cards #2-4 in Silithus when I was grinding texts for my main and I had all but #7 saved in my bank, so I just figured I would try it out. I found it to be great when you have not so great gear. As it IMO should be.

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Old 09/06/06, 11:26 AM   #48
Avair
The Howard Roark of Shipwrights
 
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Avair
Human Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Darkmoon card is good when your gear is terrible (blues), but still worse that HoJ, which is about as obtainable.

I just got my ES this past week, and am still not convinced I will use it over my HoJ, other than in pure Burst situations. I macro'd it to my Blade Flurry skill, which is great, but I still end up not using enough, especially when there are situations where I'm saving BF for multiple mob pulls (ala Firelords in MC).

I'm think ES is best tied to you AR cooldown, giving you all 3 activated effects together (ES/BF/AR).

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Old 09/06/06, 11:51 AM   #49
Mem
King Hippo
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Blackrock (EU)
I played a bit around with the numbers for earthstrike as a preparation for our patchwerk tries. First conclusion: the seal of the dawn is much better :) (like wodin said).

Second conclusion: in a fight where you can activate the trinket pretty quickly you have to recalculate the downtime of the trinket. My assumptions were roughly: 1st activation after 10 seconds, later actions right after the CD has ended. If you play it like that, and you assume 3 to 4 uptimes (fight durations varied from 5 to 7 minutes) the greatest effect you can gain is about 54-56 ap if you model it as a passive trinket. Not to mention the synergies you gain from timing it with BF and AR. The problem is that you often cannot calculate accurately the duration of a fight beforehands :)

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Old 09/06/06, 12:36 PM   #50
Inwe
Glass Joe
 
Murloc Rogue
 
Azgalor
Originally Posted by Deathwing
Bad assumptions to make, Discofiend, regarding how much of a dps increase crit and hit are. Plus, you leave out the best part of KoTS: stacking it with blade flurry and SnD. All haste effects are multiplicative.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haste effects post-patch 1.12 are now additive.

http://www.ctprofiles.net/909889

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