sp00n

I correct you.

 

Natrozim

I think that change was only to mouvement speed debuffs, from my understanding of the wording in the patch notes at least... haste effects still *should* be multiplicative, but maybe they just dint mention it specifically... Though some wordings are still a bit iffy... like on azuregos his chill effect says time between attacks is increased by 300% since 1.12 yet S&D is still +30% attack speed. so is it -75% attack speed then +30% from S&D for 45% total reduction now when affected by that debuff? was it like this before?

 

Trildon

Since it's sort of on topic, and I've been wondering about it for a while; from my own experiences it doesn't seem like berzerking, blade flurry, and slice and dice stack correctly. Or at least have some sort of extra element in the way they're calculated. Probably that the % from the one is calculated after the other is applied now that I think about it. (I could just be crazy) Does anybody have the formula that one would use to determine haste % when:

Slice and Dice + Blade Flurry are up
Slice and Dice + Berzerking are up - and just for kicks
Blade Flurry + Berzerking are up

Go ahead and assume max haste percent from Berzerking for ease of calculation. Not sure if i've been using these three with max efficiency and want to get there if I haven't been!

 

◊ Kalman

The stacking formula for those, pre-1.12, was multiplicative: BF+SnD gave 1.2*1.3 = 1.56 = 56% boost in # attacks, etc.

Remember that 30% more attacks is newspeed = oldspeed/1.3, not oldspeed*0.7.

 

Trildon

Yea it ended up being a stupid question and I figured out where I was going wrong shortly after I posted :P

 

• Wodin

As an aside, the 150AP vs. undead trinket you get from the Phylactery is amazing and ranks above anything else you can get vs. undead.

 

thingol

It confuses me that the uber anti undead trinket drops near the end not the beginning of the instance.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....t&s5=Dodge&v=2

 

Trazhenko

The hunter quest reward staff has +45 AP vs. demons. Grats on unnecessary. At least people who get the Kel reward will probably still slay a few undead every week for a while after they get it.

 

• Chicken

The trinket reward from Kel'Thuzad is also against demons. And the expansion is most definitely at least going partly towards demons, and it seems Karazhan might have a high amount of undead in it.

It's not quite as satisfying as the rewards from C'Thun, Nefarian or Onyxia though.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Xard

Well you get a 100% drop that will give you an insane damage boost on clearing Naxx now, clearing MULTIPLE future instances, and at the same time Blizzard doesn't have to worry about it destroyed kids in PvP. Seems like a win win really, I wish it were more general but then I doubt it would be as good.

 

Azaziel

Sorry to bring up a fairly old thread.

Im a rogue in a guild starting out in naxx, gear is BF+DD mix. I have been a diehard mace rogue forever but recently picked up TF and switched to combat swords. Up until now I have been using DFT and switching between the ZHM and Swarmguard for 2nd slot depending on fight. Is it worth for me to farm up HoJ?

 

probiscus

Yes. Ditch ZHM; its only real use is popping it, stealthing and cold blood ambushing somebody, then swapping it out to something more useful as soon as you can.

If you're starting out in Naxx, are you killing Ouro as well? I'd go for Jom Gabbar were I in your shoes.

 

Pixelated

I managed to pick up a Kiss of the Spider a week or so back and with my current gear it works out to be slightly ahead of Earthstrike. I lose a little bit of burst damage when blowing cooldowns, but the passive increases my constant DPS enough to counter that. Once I get better gear KotS will be insane.

Basically repeating what others have said here.

Edit: Also whats with my forum title. I have read the rules and done everything I thought.

 

marty

I'm intrigued, where has it been mentioned that the haste effect will decrease with level? Or is this just an assumption?

 

Lank

On use trinkets are generally better than they seem, especially on fights that are shorter than their cooldown duration.
Eg. Earthstrike vs the gargoyles before Noth.

Or when the fight lasts exactly as long as the cooldown + duration.
(ie. 2:20 fight with earthstrike)

 

Lank

Also I was told that HoJ resets your swing timer, rather than giving you and "extra" hit.
If that's true, its only about half as good as it seems.

 

Jaz

It's mostly an assumption, but a sound one, since we're seeing BC items that have "spell haste rating". The crit/hit etc change is retroactive so it's assumed KotS will be hit by this as well.

 

Solid

I know this was posted ages ago and not sure if its been flagged in this thread, but 1% crit does NOT equal 1% DPS increase unless your %Crit was 0% to begin with.

at 25% Crit 1% crit increase can be though of as going from 125% DPS to 126% DPS aka a 1/125 DPS gain, or 0.80% total gain
at 30% Crit 1% crit increase can be though of as going from 130% DPS to 126% DPS aka a 1/130 DPS gain, or 0.77% total gain
at 35% Crit 1% crit increase can be though of as going from 135% DPS to 126% DPS aka a 1/135 DPS gain, or 0.74% total gain
at 40% Crit 1% crit increase can be though of as going from 140% DPS to 126% DPS aka a 1/140 DPS gain, or 0.71% total gain

As you can see, the higher yoru Crit% gets, the less %Crit is worth....PERIOD

Alternatively, +AP always scales and is never worth less the more you get. (basis behind the commonly akcnowledged motto "AP is KING!"

Solid - Night Elf Warrior of The Last Watch

 

sp00n

Huh?
Well, if you do it that way, then:
at 800 AP 100 AP increase can be though of as going from 800% DPS to 900% DPS aka a 100/800 DPS gain, or 0.125% total gain
at 1000 AP 100 AP increase can be though of as going from 1000% DPS to 1100% DPS aka a 100/1000 DPS gain, or 0.1% total gain
at 1500 AP 100 AP increase can be though of as going from 1500% DPS to 1600% DPS aka a 100/1500 DPS gain, or 0.067% total gain

You can make everything relative if you really want to...


As long as you don't hit the crit cap for white damage, 1% crit IS worth 1% DPS increase, because it makes 1% of your attacks do twice the damage (or even more, depending on talents).

 

Solid

No

AP is NOT a %scaling stat, so it serves no purpose to ever think of it as such.

And 1% crit can ONLY effect your NON CRIT damage. how can +%Crit make your already critting attacks do more damage? In short it cannot, therefore Crit can only effect the non crit portion of your total damage

Solid - Night Elf Warrior of The Last Watch

 

sp00n

Well, as I've said, as long as you haven't reached your crit cap, crit doesn't get less effective. It always makes 1% of your attacks hit harder than before. Doesn't matter if you are at 20% or 40% Crit.

Crit scales with Hit, Crit scales with AP.
AP scales with Crit, AP scales with Hit.
Hit scales with AP.

I don't see your point, really.

 

Lukon

However, you are forgetting miss and dodge, which don't stack multiplicatively with crit. At 25% crit your white damage hit table might look like:

25% crit
55% hit
15% miss
5% dodge,

giving an average of 105% of a hit. Then 1 crit gives around +0.95% dps. For a more applicable example, suppose we have 40% crit, 10% miss and 5% dodge. Assuming 60% white damage and 40% yellow damage with Lethality, 1% crit will give:

0.6 * (1 / 1.25) + 0.4 * (1.3 / [1 + 1.3 * 0.4 - 0.05]) = ~ 0.83% dps. (Of course still a rough approximation in the grand scheme of things).


As sp00n pointed out, the same thing happens with AP - the more you have, the lower the proportionate increase. ie there is diminishing returns on AP, and IMHO any linearly increasing statistic. However the opposite happens with hit and crit - or any % based, multiplicative modifiers. The more dps you have, the more the next 1% (or 0.83%, perhaps) adds.

 

Solid

hmm maybe I missed someting :D

So assume 400 pre-crit DPS
crit% of 25%
no talents yet

total DPS = non-crit + crit = 400 + 100 = 500

increase &Crit by 5%

total DPS = non-crit + crit = 400 + 120 = 520

increase &Crit by another 5%

total DPS = non-crit + crit = 400 + 140 = 540

Ignore me then, whilst 1% Crit still DOES NOT equal 1% DPS gain, it DOES scale DPS linearly the same as AP does.

Solid - Night Elf Warrior of The Last Watch

 

Lukon

The tooltip crit % is the proportion of weapon swings that are crits, rather than the proportion of hits that are crits. So +1% crit means 1% of your weapon swings are converted to crits, which is more than 1% of your hits. eg suppose in your example with 400 pre-crit dps that the miss + dodge rate was 30% in total.

70% of your swings give 400 dps.
Adding 25% crit rate, you effectively have 95% total hit rate, giving:
400 / 70 * 95 = 543 dps

Correct. On a static base dps, each % of crit is an almost linear increase, just like AP. I should have been clearer above. Consider what happens as your gear improves:

Case 1
A fresh level 60
600 AP
25% crit, 25% miss + dodge (average swing is 100% of a hit)

Case 2
A well geared and buffed raider
1800 AP
40% crit, 15% miss + dodge (average swing is 125% of a hit)

Each point of AP is affected multiplicatively by hit and crit. The AP from Case 1 to Case 2 has become 25% more valuable. But the AP has tripled. Each new crit you add is 200% more valuable. Essentially, the multipliers on AP do not vary much as you get better gear, but crit and hit become much more valuable.

 

Solid

Hmm

perhaps I have been undervaluing crit and agi for the last few months.

Can you check my profile and tell me if I need to swap my +Str enchants for +Agi enchants? I have spent the last few months stackign AP at the expense of mainly %Crit and am worried that at my current itemisation I have veered onto the incorrect path.

Solid - Night Elf Warrior of The Last Watch