Since your hit rate has nothing to do with your actual flurry uptime or this buff, you can do it with a little quicker estimation:
C = Crit %
F = Flurry multiplier = .3(1 - (1-C)^3)
S = Swings Per Min = (60 / main hand weapon speed) + (60 / off hand weapon speed)
flurried swings per minute = F*S
Crits per minute = C*F*S
If you're getting less than 6 crits per minute, it's not enough to sustain the AP buff. Realistically you need about 8 or 9 crits per minute to guarantee near-constant uptime. With a fast weapon like a Julie's Dagger you can keep it up predictably, one handed, with 15% crit rate and no Windfury. DWing them with windfury is going to be complete overkill, even when you count in mob avoidance. Even with something slower like a Lok'amir and a Claw of Chromaggus you're going to need a very low crit rate (15%ish) to keep it up fairly consistently. This is of course assuming all you do is melee, but you can't really model casting heals in very well without making it absurdly complicated.
So basically, yes, 31/30 is completely viable if all you want is the AP buff. Having fast weapons and 40 Enhancement is still going to be a good build because of the extra mana gained from JoW, though.
Edit: conclusion and parentheses
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
You're not going to want to use fast daggers with Stormstrike, though. 20 second cooldown is too long to waste on using some 1.7 speed dagger when you could be using 2.7 speed axes/maces. Remember new Stormstrike = "instantly attacks with all equipped weapons."
Although I am too much in class and too much on hydrocodone to figure it out right now.
Yeah, I realize that, but this was about keeping Unleashed Rage active for everyone else in the group and how much 15 or 30 agility helped with that.
Blizzard calculates 30% haste as 2.3/1.3 = 1.77 speed, not 2.3*.7 = 1.61 speed, fyi. This means 30% haste gives a 30% DPS increase, not a 43% increase.
Having never suffered through trying to mathematically model anything for WoW, I missed this stuff. I didn't see much about that in combat mechanics thread about flurry other than the base formula. I'll try rerunning it tomorrow with the S/1.3 change instead of .7 to see how much it changes.
Blizzard can balance the DW healing option a little with the strength of the 1h vs 2h +healing enchants avail. The +25 agil went a long way towards making 2H options acceptable again for hunters when they did it. +100 heal to 2H maybe?
The biggest advantage though is the ability of a shaman to gear for DPS, pound away and then add 500+ healing to his setup via weaponswitch when he needs to. Thats a pretty significant jump. Just remains to be seen how good that DPS is versus alternatives.
You probably won't be able to match any other classes due to the fact that you have a grand total of one (rather large mana cost) instant on a 20 second cooldown. Sure, you have Flurry, but your DW spec doesn't reduce the offhand penalty. I suppose you could get an insane amount of hit to counteract that and if you were an Orc Shaman with Edgemaster's Handguards you could do some pretty nice white dps. But white dps is white dps is only half the equation.
The talent says increases damage dealt by all weapons by 10%, I am pretty sure that helps the off-hand do a bit more damage.
I agree with you that a Shaman will do less dps than a Rogue or Hunter, but the utility of a Shaman is very handy to have around.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
If I was going to go enhancement for PvE purposes (and I think that one shammy in a 25 man raid should) and not care about PvP in any way then I would move away from thinking about duel wield and stick with a nightfall to assist the casters' DPS as well. Something like this:
Any unleashed rage downtime (and I dont think there would be much) would be made up in giving casters nightfall procs. The resto talents are a bit wacky but gives a solid healing base with healing wave and healing way. Duel wielding is not the be all and end all of enhancement raiding specs.
The talent says increases damage dealt by all weapons by 10%, I am pretty sure that helps the off-hand do a bit more damage.
I agree with you that a Shaman will do less dps than a Rogue or Hunter, but the utility of a Shaman is very handy to have around.
Shaman DW Spec is 10% to hit while dual wielding, which is 5% hit than a Rogue gets. You are referring to Weapon Mastery, which increases damage done by all weapons by 10%. To be more specific, 10% to your mainhand, 5% to your offhand (110%/2 = 55% after all). If you were Enh/Resto you could get another +3% to hit.
The talent says increases damage dealt by all weapons by 10%, I am pretty sure that helps the off-hand do a bit more damage.
I agree with you that a Shaman will do less dps than a Rogue or Hunter, but the utility of a Shaman is very handy to have around.
Shaman DW Spec is 10% to hit while dual wielding, which is 5% hit than a Rogue gets. You are referring to Weapon Mastery, which increases damage done by all weapons by 10%. To be more specific, 10% to your mainhand, 5% to your offhand (110%/2 = 55% after all). If you were Enh/Resto you could get another +3% to hit.
In terms of just white damage talents, Shaman and Rogues aren't that far apart. In faaaaact....
Pretend MH = 100, and OH = 100. OH gets the 50% reduction in damage, so it's 100 + 50.
Shaman with Weapon Mastery get 10%, so that becomes 110 + 55 = 165.
Rogues get Dual Wield Spec, which gives 50% bonus, so that becomes 100 + 75 = 175.
Base miss rate with dual wield is 24%, right?
Rogues have a 19% chance to miss, so that becomes 175 x .81 = 141.75
Shaman have a 14% chance to miss, so that becomes 165 x .86 = 141.9
This gets further in favour of the Shaman, the less relative damage the OH has compared to the MH. This also isn't counting the extra 3% hit you could get in Nature's Guidance, weird double WF/RB behaviour (or poisons). Shaman get Flurry, which is matched by SnD. Rogues get an extra 5% crit/extra hit/stun and an extra +5 weapon skill (which you could match by being an Orc or with Edgemasters).
Add in Shocks and Stormstrike, and a Shaman's total damage will be doing at least at much as a Rogue's white damage. Now, I've heard some Rogues say that about 60% of their damage is white.
Since Unleashed Rage will give an extra 10% AP (and therefore, at least an extra 10% damage) to four people, that's an extra 40% damage. 60% + 40% = 100%, which means a Shaman will be contributing the equivalent of a Rogue/DPS Warrior's DPS. Now add in the extra benefits of totem buffs and healing, and Enhancment Shaman definitely seems to be capable of pulling their weight.
Did I do that right? I made a few assumptions like how Rogues/Warriors use the extra AP and the difference between the various temporary weapon buffs.
On the sidenote - what shock do you think will be standard for enhancement shammy DPS routine?
With 40 debuff limit and all the fire damage multipliers around (I take CoE and Fire Vuln. as sort of given), Flameshock every 12 sec. might be actually better then ES. Also - much more safe.
On the sidenote - what shock do you think will be standard for enhancement shammy DPS routine?
With 40 debuff limit and all the fire damage multiplayers around (I take CoE and Fire Vuln. as sort of given), Flameshock every 12 sec. might be actually better then ES. Also - much more safe.
Well, at the moment, max rank Flame Shock is better DPM and DPS than even a Stormstriked Earth Shock, so if debuff slots aren't an issue, that'll be the clear choice. It will all depend on the new ranks and gear (mail with melee stats and +nature damage?).
You've both forgot WF in your calculations. As of 1.11, Flurry can be proc'd by WF, but is not eaten by WF. so for Flurry and for UR you need to consider that.
I had worked it out fully in the old Shaman forums but can't seem to find it saved on my HD. But off the top of my head, for C% crit, it would be the following:
Flurry:
The logic is this. First you figure out what are the chances of at least one of my previous three attacks critting, if one or more does, who cares about WF. But we do care if our previous three attacks all didn't crit, then we need to figure out what are the chances that WF proc'd on those three hits, and if so, did the extra attacks crit.
1 - ((1-C) ^ 3) <---- Standard, "Did any of my last three attacks crit"
+
((1-C) ^ 3) <---- Chance that they all didn't crit
* 1 - (.8 ^3) <---- Chance that WF Procs on those three hits.
* 2 <---- 2 WF Attacks
* C <---- Crit rate
Again, that was off the top of my head, so I think there probably is something wrong with my "<---- Chance that WF Procs on those three hits" line. Because that is only assuming WF proc'd once, which it may proc more. I guess I could use Expected Values (WF is expected to proc .6 times in three swings) but I'm not sure. It's been a good 12 years since I graduated from University with my Math Degree and have pretty much forgotten everything I ever learned.
The main thing was to show that with WF, Flurry (and by extension Unleashed Rage) will be up a lot more than without, so it can't be ignored.
The talent says increases damage dealt by all weapons by 10%, I am pretty sure that helps the off-hand do a bit more damage.
I agree with you that a Shaman will do less dps than a Rogue or Hunter, but the utility of a Shaman is very handy to have around.
Shaman DW Spec is 10% to hit while dual wielding, which is 5% hit than a Rogue gets. You are referring to Weapon Mastery, which increases damage done by all weapons by 10%. To be more specific, 10% to your mainhand, 5% to your offhand (110%/2 = 55% after all). If you were Enh/Resto you could get another +3% to hit.
In terms of just white damage talents, Shaman and Rogues aren't that far apart. In faaaaact....
Pretend MH = 100, and OH = 100. OH gets the 50% reduction in damage, so it's 100 + 50.
Shaman with Weapon Mastery get 10%, so that becomes 110 + 55 = 165.
Rogues get Dual Wield Spec, which gives 50% bonus, so that becomes 100 + 75 = 175.
Base miss rate with dual wield is 24%, right?
Rogues have a 19% chance to miss, so that becomes 175 x .81 = 141.75
Shaman have a 14% chance to miss, so that becomes 165 x .86 = 141.9
This gets further in favour of the Shaman, the less relative damage the OH has compared to the MH. This also isn't counting the extra 3% hit you could get in Nature's Guidance, weird double WF/RB behaviour (or poisons). Shaman get Flurry, which is matched by SnD. Rogues get an extra 5% crit/extra hit/stun and an extra +5 weapon skill (which you could match by being an Orc or with Edgemasters).
Add in Shocks and Stormstrike, and a Shaman's total damage will be doing at least at much as a Rogue's white damage. Now, I've heard some Rogues say that about 60% of their damage is white.
Since Unleashed Rage will give an extra 10% AP (and therefore, at least an extra 10% damage) to four people, that's an extra 40% damage. 60% + 40% = 100%, which means a Shaman will be contributing the equivalent of a Rogue/DPS Warrior's DPS. Now add in the extra benefits of totem buffs and healing, and Enhancment Shaman definitely seems to be capable of pulling their weight.
edit: fixed numbers. 24 - 5 != 21 :P
That is the way I was looking at it, if a DW Full Enh Shaman can contribute greater than 60% of an UnShammy buffed Rogue/Fury Warrior, they are an asset to the raid. I think being an Orc will help tremendously to that, not having to use Edgemasters and using pure DPS gloves would be great.
The biggest question I have while waiting for more beta info is if you can buff your offhand weapon with wf/rb/etc and if you can, does wf on offhand proc mainhand attacks like sword spec/hoj? If so then a slow mh with an extremely fast offhand has the potential to be some ridiculous dps just from autoattacking. If it doesn't allow the sword spec-esque functionality then a rockbiter offhand is going to skyrocket your ap.
The biggest question I have while waiting for more beta info is if you can buff your offhand weapon with wf/rb/etc and if you can, does wf on offhand proc mainhand attacks like sword spec/hoj?
It currently does, yes, but that functionality is probably not intended.
WTB theorycrafting; would an Unleashed Rage chain-shocking shaman be better off using DPS/DPS weapons or DPS/caster weapons? I.e. Gressil/Castigator versus Gressil/Wraith Blade.
In terms of just white damage talents, Shaman and Rogues aren't that far apart. In faaaaact....
I'm sure you just overlooked the fact that Shamans have zero aggro reduction and any Rogue will have an assload more AP than a Shaman who retains any sort of casting usefulness, which your example also assumes. Shocks aren't free. This is baseless theorycrafting that serves no purpose. Anybody who has seriously attempted to DPS as a Shaman in a raid has undoubtedly pulled aggro on an early Windfury and died. Even if a Shaman manages to ride just under the threat cap, their damage cap is far less than any Rogue's not even considering Feint.
I think I'm going to end up with a big bag of weapons should I decide to go Enhancement. There doesn't appear to be one single correct answer for what weapon is best for any situation. Shamanistic Rage clearly calls for the fastest weapons possible even if it's PPM based and fast weapons are best with Flametongue and Frostbrand, but slow weapons are far more optimal for Stormstrike use and Windfury.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Anybody who has seriously attempted to DPS as a Shaman in a raid has undoubtedly pulled aggro on an early Windfury and died. Even if a Shaman manages to ride just under the threat cap, their damage cap is far less than any Rogue's not even considering Feint.
Considering you'll be DW now, you won't get the huge triple crit 2H WF early in a fight to steal agro and you'll have BoS it really shouldn't be a problem.
Think of it this way, forget a Rogue, if Enh Shaman do over 60% the damage of an unShammyBuffed Fury Warrior, then they should never pull agro. Fury Warriors have reduced threat, but not enough to make up a 40% difference in Damage.
In terms of just white damage talents, Shaman and Rogues aren't that far apart. In faaaaact....
I'm sure you just overlooked the fact that Shamans have zero aggro reduction and any Rogue will have an assload more AP than a Shaman who retains any sort of casting usefulness, which your example also assumes. Shocks aren't free. This is baseless theorycrafting that serves no purpose. Anybody who has seriously attempted to DPS as a Shaman in a raid has undoubtedly pulled aggro on an early Windfury and died. Even if a Shaman manages to ride just under the threat cap, their damage cap is far less than any Rogue's not even considering Feint.
No, I didn't overlook aggro. Like siddown says, if you're doing 60% DPS of a melee DPSer, you should never pull aggro. No big WF triple crits because you're not using a two hander means no huge DPS spikes either. Don't forget BoS.
And I assume that gear is going to be tailored for our roles, so there's no reason why a Rogue would have that much more AP/crit than a Shaman would.
I have also considered the mana situation. Paladins give a huge change to how much mana an Enhancement Shaman will have. Talented BoW gives a straight 41 mana/5 seconds. JoW is 59 mana on %50 of your hits. If you have two fast weapons with Flurry and possibly Windfury, that's going to be a shitload of mana. Along with Shamanistic Rage, shaman look fine for mana.
Siddown, I didn't consider Windfury shenanigans for a few reasons:
1) I'm not certain how Dual Wield is going to work with temporary weapon buffs. I'd assume they're going to change it from how it works in BC alpha at the moment;
2) I'd have to model WF totem on a rogue, poisons, etc, and i already went further on the theorycraft than i meant to. :P; and
3) I could (loosely) prove that an Enhancement Shaman was worth a raid spot without it. :)
While i'm not definate that increasing AP by 10% equates to a 10% increase in DPS, i can very happy to say my disc/shadow priest will only need to do around 30-40% of the damage of a caster to earn his raid spot.
Which you will probably have to give up BoW or BoK for or which the Rogues will also have? You're not going to have Paladins and JoW in all situations and planning on it to ensure success is going to set you up for failure. Spike damage at the start of a fight isn't a huge concern, doing sustained damage over the course of the fight is. I've pulled aggro late in fights on strings of Windfury attacks in half DPS gear, I can't imagine how bad it is for somebody who really has a full DPS setup.
And I assume that gear is going to be tailored for our roles, so there's no reason why a Rogue would have that much more AP/crit than a Shaman would.
Look at the difference between Deathdealer and Stormcaller. That's the difference in itemization between real DPS gear and hybrid gear. If you go a step further than that to real damage gear full time you cripple your spellcasting ability to the point where your mana returns will be almost meaningless because you'll have no +dmg or +healing left to do anything but melee and shock. As far as I'm concerned Stormcaller is the best overall armor a Shaman can wear, and if there were a continuation of that set in TBC I'd be a happy camper and would heartily aim for getting it. However it's still nowhere near the overall AP and crit of Deathdealer.
Your original post has so many fallacies in it I don't even know where to begin, but it's the kind of theorycrafting you see on the WoW forums, not on EJ. A Enhancement Shaman is not meant to provide more total damage to a raid than a skilled Rogue in comparable gear, especially not over any sort of sustained fight. We simply do not have the mana pool to sustain shocks and Stormstrike to infinity, and not even Shamanistic Rage will allow that. Similarly an Elemental Shaman is not going to replace a Mage any time soon no matter what people try and tell you about how awesomely lightning spells scale. What that Shaman can provide is a good amount of DPS and buffs to the party while still providing the flexibility to heal when things go south or the encounter demands it. That's the job of a hybrid. Paladins do the same thing only with a tanking role instead of a DPS role. Druids are able to do both jobs, but arguably not as well as either a Shaman or a Druid. Hybrids don't exist to take over roles for primary classes, do a better job of it and then go "LOL I CAN HEAL BETTAR TOO". Blizzard may be dumb about some things toward Shamans but they're sure as hell smarter than that.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
Which you will probably have to give up BoW or BoK for or which the Rogues will also have? You're not going to have Paladins and JoW in all situations and planning on it to ensure success is going to set you up for failure.
The BoS comment is for aggro sensitive fights, which means both classes will have BoS instead of BoK/BoM. For non aggro sensitive fights, why on earth would a Shaman doing 60% of a melee dpsers damage pull aggo? And why wouldn't I assume Paladins would be there? We're talking about a raid environment. Why don't I next assume we won't have a tank either. Although you do you have a point with blessings. You need at least three Paladins to get all the blessings you need (BoM/BoK/BoW), whereas rogues only need two.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Spike damage at the start of a fight isn't a huge concern, doing sustained damage over the course of the fight is. I've pulled aggro late in fights on strings of Windfury attacks in half DPS gear, I can't imagine how bad it is for somebody who really has a full DPS setup.
I don't really see anything to support your conclusions except for anedoctal evidence. If you got aggro late in a fight, you either exceeded 10% of the tanks threat right after a deaggro due to a WF damage spike or you were somehow competitive (within 80%?) of a unvanished rogue/DPS warrior.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
And I assume that gear is going to be tailored for our roles, so there's no reason why a Rogue would have that much more AP/crit than a Shaman would.
Look at the difference between Deathdealer and Stormcaller. That's the difference in itemization between real DPS gear and hybrid gear. If you go a step further than that to real damage gear full time you cripple your spellcasting ability to the point where your mana returns will be almost meaningless because you'll have no +dmg or +healing left to do anything but melee and shock. As far as I'm concerned Stormcaller is the best overall armor a Shaman can wear, and if there were a continuation of that set in TBC I'd be a happy camper and would heartily aim for getting it. However it's still nowhere near the overall AP and crit of Deathdealer.
I would hope Blizzard's Enhancement Shaman gear would spend less ilevel points on spell crit and spirit. You seem to think that an Enhancement Shaman would be doing much healing. I don't think that at all. I don't think mana will be a problem with the things mentioned before.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Your original post has so many fallacies in it I don't even know where to begin, but it's the kind of theorycrafting you see on the WoW forums, not on EJ. A Enhancement Shaman is not meant to provide more total damage to a raid than a skilled Rogue in comparable gear, especially not over any sort of sustained fight. We simply do not have the mana pool to sustain shocks and Stormstrike to infinity, and not even Shamanistic Rage will allow that. Similarly an Elemental Shaman is not going to replace a Mage any time soon no matter what people try and tell you about how awesomely lightning spells scale. What that Shaman can provide is a good amount of DPS and buffs to the party while still providing the flexibility to heal when things go south or the encounter demands it. That's the job of a hybrid. Paladins do the same thing only with a tanking role instead of a DPS role. Druids are able to do both jobs, but arguably not as well as either a Shaman or a Druid. Hybrids don't exist to take over roles for primary classes, do a better job of it and then go "LOL I CAN HEAL BETTAR TOO". Blizzard may be dumb about some things toward Shamans but they're sure as hell smarter than that.
You don't know what procrate on Shamanistic Rage will be like so I don't really see how you can call it. (Also, people have said it's been changed to restore mana equal to 15% of your attackpower on procs instead of 20% of your strength).
I don't think you understand what I am saying. I'm not saying that a Shaman can replace a Rogue in a raid. I'm saying, if you have three Rogues and a DPS Warrior in a group, filling that last slot with an Enhancement Shaman will be superior to taking another Rogue/Warrior. Shaman won't do more damage than a Rogue. They'll do 60% the damage of one.
You seem to be very angry about something. I said that I wasn't sure about my calculations and asked for corrections about them. If you don't agree with them, that's fine, tell me why I'm wrong instead of accusing me of "posting like I should be at the official boards". Quite frankly, from your attitude, it seems like you're the one that should be posting on the official boards.
Yer i think what Panny is trying to say is that, if he can increase the DPS of 4 other people by 10% each, and then he can do approximately 60% (of their PRE +10% from himself. :P) of the DPS of those other 4 people, he has effectively added another 100% DPS class, and has "earnt" his position in the raid.
It's definately not that the enh shaman can bring personally DPS wise, it's RAID dps wise, that counts. :)
09/06/06, 5:42 PM
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