Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion
Reload this Page Shaman Dual Wield: Do all caster weapons need to be "main hand" now?

Reply
Page 5 of 5 « First < 3 4 5
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09/21/06, 12:47 AM   #101
krucifix85
Don Flamenco
 
Human Warlock
 
Barthilas
You're missing the point Nite.
"Any other" Shaman who walks in, will be taking the role of a Healer. That is, that shaman will count against the 10healers you are going to want in your 25man raid.

The shaman panny and Siddown are contemplating, is a Shaman that is taking the raid spot of a rogue, or dps warrior, and is in addition to the 2-3 other Healing Shaman already in your raid.

The real question is are you any more effective in that 5th slot than any other Shaman who walks in?
No, the question they are asking is, will you add more DPS for the raid, than the rogue/warr in the other group.

We don't have the actual numbers yet, but if the answer is No, then a resto shaman in place of you would be better, but if the answer is Yes, then swapping that other rogue/warr out for any other healer, would be best for the raid.
http://ctprofiles.net/13134

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/21/06, 12:49 AM   #102
panny
Bald Bull
 
panny's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
TODAY, it's a poor way to play. Why? Because of the lack of mana. I addressed this.
Spamming Shocks and Stormstrike will always been a poor way to play because you are not keeping people alive while you're doing it.
Originally Posted by krucifix85
Rember, this Enh. Shaman in question is taking a DPS slot.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Shamanistic Rage and JoW are not going to feed you such outrageous amounts of mana that sustaining the 80%-of-a-Rogue damage will be possible forever. You are still going to run dry eventually, or have to rotate your attacks to use either only SS or Shocks and your DPS will drop off sharply when you do. Ask any Warlock what happens to their DPS once they have to start lifetapping. You'll be in the same boat.
Originally Posted by panny
You don't know what procrate on Shamanistic Rage will be like so I don't really see how you can call it. (Also, people have said it's been changed to restore mana equal to 15% of your attackpower on procs instead of 20% of your strength).
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
You say not impressive DPS.
Give a 0/11/40 Shaman a two handed weapon comparable to the weapons the 0/44/17 Shaman is using and the white damage will not be very far off. There is no rule that says a Resto Shaman can't shock too and have a melee set in his bags; Shamans are extremely gear dependant when it comes to melee damage due to the lack of special attacks that can be used forever. Elemental Shamans burn through their mana approximately as quickly but will have Unrelenting Storm and have very efficient damage:mana ratios, and the gear that allows them to be effective nukers also makes them effective healers. This means the only major DPS differences are UR, which is approximately 7% damage for 4 people, and Stormstrike. See above paragraph for why the non-white damage won't hold out forever.

Under the right circumstances the Enhancement Shaman will bring more DPS to the raid than a Rogue. However, in any situation where the DPS Enhancement Shaman is effective, any other Shaman can also melee and provide non-trivial damage with either a two handed weapon or elemental weapon enchants on a fast weapon with +dmg gear. Your question is can you replace a DPS class. The answer is yes. Windfury says that a Shaman as the 5th member of any melee DPS group is better than another melee class to fill the 5th spot on its own. Anybody who runs numbers on the effects of WF totem, especially on 2H warriors, will tell you the DPS difference is staggering.

The real question is are you any more effective in that 5th slot than any other Shaman who walks in?
Here's what an Enhancement Shaman gains over a Resto Shaman. Flurry. Better weapon buffs. +10% weapon damage. +10% AP to five people (including himself). If you don't think that's extremely substantial... I guess we don't have anything left to discuss.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/21/06, 1:05 AM   #103
Ngita
Don Flamenco
 
Human Paladin
 
<Aus>
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
The real question is are you any more effective in that 5th slot than any other Shaman who walks in?
Is he more effective in that slot as enhancement than as a 3rd resto shaman in a 25 main raid with 12 healers?

The answer to that question is you probably have too much healing and should take a rogue or fury warrior in his place. But if a 3rd Shaman specced as enhancement brings more to the raid then a 4th rogue we are back to the original theorycraft in the last couple of pages ,which is does a enchancement shaman increase the raid dps more than a rogue in a melee group. composed of at least 4 rogues/fury warriors.

At least that question comes down to 1 spec rather than several players with several specs and argueing which combination is better.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/21/06, 3:53 AM   #104
Siddown
Don Flamenco
 
Siddown's Avatar
 
Undead Rogue
 
Lightninghoof
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Give a 0/11/40 Shaman a two handed weapon comparable to the weapons the 0/44/17 Shaman is using and the white damage will not be very far off.
Wait, what? You're not serious about this are you?

With talents an Enhancement Shaman with have +13% to hit (10 Enh tree, 3 Resto tree), +10% Damage because of Weapon Mastery, +10% AP for 10 seconds every time they crit because of UR, Thundering Strikes and Flurry. Not to mention DW vastly out damages 2H once you get enough +Hit, it won't even be close...even if you assumed they were using identical gear, which they likely wouldn't.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/21/06, 4:14 AM   #105
krucifix85
Don Flamenco
 
Human Warlock
 
Barthilas
And with Clearcasting and 16% cheaper Shocks, and all other instant casts (only one you'd cast are totems(?) and SS) are 6% cheaper, you would really struggle to run oom with BoW, JoW (+dual wield), SR, and pots.
(using a spec, similar to http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=hEczZxVcbVMsEuqo , foregoing all healing talents)
http://ctprofiles.net/13134

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/21/06, 5:41 AM   #106
Krill
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Warlock
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by krucifix85
And with Clearcasting and 16% cheaper Shocks, and all other instant casts (only one you'd cast are totems(?) and SS) are 6% cheaper, you would really struggle to run oom with BoW, JoW (+dual wield), SR, and pots.
(using a spec, similar to http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=hEczZxVcbVMsEuqo , foregoing all healing talents)
Hmmm, actually most of the the early talents in Resto talents are not that much "healing only" related...

Having cheaper totems and +3 hit to spell/weapon is defiently better option then going for early elemental talents. +3 to hit translates directly to mana regeneration from JoW because of affecting all hits with weapon, shocks and stormstrike. Every miss on spell/weapon hit translates to lost 50% chance to regain 74 mana (new rank of JoW), not to mention lost DPS. While clearcast can happen only when you cast spell (20 sec. cooldown on SS, 6 sec. on shocks) and it's only mana save, not DPS improvement.

5% cheaper heals are just a bonus if in case of emergency, but Totemic Focus and Nature's Guidance are perfect talents for enhancement shammy.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/21/06, 7:05 AM   #107
krucifix85
Don Flamenco
 
Human Warlock
 
Barthilas
Yer that was the definate toss up. I guess discussion on the specific's of talent spec's aren't really necessary atm, seeing nothing's final. Either way, it all looks fun.
http://ctprofiles.net/13134

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 10/06/06, 5:22 PM   #108
Toabo
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Azgalor
Figure this thread is as good as any to pose this. We're currently an Alliance guild with little experience with Shaman aside from facing them in PvP. However, we're planning to have 3 of our long-time guildies create new Draeneri mains and powerlevel up some shamans for the BC raids.

However, we're a bit stuck on what spec we should encourage. I figure Restoration for 1 is a given. But what about the other 2? It sounds like Enhancement should be 1 of them just for the melee DPS boost. But what about Elemental? Is the combination caster DPS/healer also appealing, or would you be better off with second Restoration spec?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 10/06/06, 5:35 PM   #109
Kytrarewn
In 1st, e-brake activated.
 
Kytrarewn's Avatar
 
Kytrarewn
Undead Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Toabo
However, we're a bit stuck on what spec we should encourage. I figure Restoration for 1 is a given. But what about the other 2? It sounds like Enhancement should be 1 of them just for the melee DPS boost. But what about Elemental? Is the combination caster DPS/healer also appealing, or would you be better off with second Restoration spec?
Depends on the encounters and what they're "limited" by.
Don't let this asshole be a US Senator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jkU3...layer_embedded

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 10/06/06, 5:39 PM   #110
Humbaba
John Galt
 
Humbaba's Avatar
 
Humbalo
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
For leveling purposes enhancement/resto is nice, but if you're powerleveling it won't really matter. As far as encouraging specs, your guess is as good as ours. No one really knows what will be useful yet because we don't know how far to skew the healing flexibility versus the dps flexibility and we don't really know how itemization will support any spec, resto included. Things seem to be looking up for enhancement shaman compared to the current game, but that's not really an indication of overall usefulness.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 10/06/06, 6:07 PM   #111
berg
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Rogue
 
Tichondrius
Toabo, currently we think that 3 shaman makes sense pretty much reguardless of the encounter in a 25 man raid.

#1 in main melee dps group
#2 in the nuker group
#3 in the tank group.(could be healers or hunters depending on encounter)


Of these 3 the only forced spec is in the melee group where an ehancement shaman is required.

Shaman 2 or 3 can be any combination of Resto/Elemental. I think the only concern right now is that the elemental shaman in the nuker group will still primarily be a healer. They have not done much to promote elemental shaman to actually nuking instead of healing. In the end though I do not think it will be hard to get people to volunteer for this role as it will be very fun in bgs etc.

Bloodlust is so powerful that it alone almost justifies the Shaman. 35% haste for a whole minute is amazing, especially considering the number of encounters tuned in the 5-7 minute range. Bloodlust also has some really cool potential for micro group management. If the fight is aggro sensitive start the fight off with the tank receiving bloodlust. If the Fight has aggro wipes swap shaman into the hunter group and let them go to town. If the boss goes apeshit at 20% BL all the warriors and the new 'execute mages' to burn him down etc. That skill is going to be so awesome I am really looking forward to it (until some wanker mage spellsteals it hehe)

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 10/06/06, 6:07 PM   #112
Fjord
Bald Bull
 
Fjord's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Toabo
Figure this thread is as good as any to pose this. We're currently an Alliance guild with little experience with Shaman aside from facing them in PvP. However, we're planning to have 3 of our long-time guildies create new Draeneri mains and powerlevel up some shamans for the BC raids.

However, we're a bit stuck on what spec we should encourage. I figure Restoration for 1 is a given. But what about the other 2? It sounds like Enhancement should be 1 of them just for the melee DPS boost. But what about Elemental? Is the combination caster DPS/healer also appealing, or would you be better off with second Restoration spec?
There's only one raiding build right now, we'll see if there are two after the expansion.

Here's another thread we had on levelling a shaman: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=8370

If they're all going to group together up to 60. I'd have one shaman go pure resto tree to the end and for the other two nothing but enhancement.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 5 of 5 « First < 3 4 5

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion
Reload this Page Shaman Dual Wield: Do all caster weapons need to be "main hand" now?

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[shaman] DW weapons for lower lvls ? dwayna The Dung Heap 0 06/20/07 7:25 AM
Weapon Damage of Caster Weapons Argrax Public Discussion 18 01/30/07 6:09 PM
Thunderfury: Main hand or Off Hand? Ishara Public Discussion 91 01/06/07 11:43 PM
Shaman Duel Wield dps spreadsheet (yet another shaman thread, sorry) Skiace Public Discussion 2 09/27/06 11:31 PM
Shaman Dual-wielding buff information Dozer Public Discussion 13 09/11/06 12:17 PM

« Scorch: useless in TBC? | Interested in opinions...AQ40 vs Naxx, where... »


Enjin
HeroPing

Contact Us   Privacy Policy