I dont know if this has already been adressed... I did a search but couldnt find anything, so if it has been discussed already, please redirect me to that post / thread.
Now, on to my question. What kind of equipment should tanks use this fight? My guild has currently downed 5 bosses in Nax (Anub, Faerlina, Maexxna, Instructor and Noth) and has C'thun on farm status. Our GM has decided that we need to gear up 7-8 warriors (or something like that) in max Dreadnaught to be able to take the 4H... which I believe is a bit of a procrastination.
So what do you guys say? Do we need 7-8 Dreadnaught tanks or not?
While we have not yet killed the 4H, I can say that you want tanks in Dreadnaught. You don't need full Dreadnaught -- the helpful part is the 4pc bonus. You certainly don't need 8 tanks in full Dreadnaught. More DPS -- and rogue DPS especially -- makes the fight faster and thus less prone to bad luck.
What we did was default our first 16 pieces of war/rog loot to warrior to get four 4/9 Dreadnaught tanks. After that, we let DKP dictate results as normal (which led to the next bunch going to rogues since they'd been forcibly hoarding points while warriors got their stuff). It worked out pretty well. Having four tanks with Dreadnaught works really nicely on fights like Patchwerk.
While we have not yet killed the 4H, I can say that you want tanks in Dreadnaught. You don't need full Dreadnaught -- the helpful part is the 4pc bonus. You certainly don't need 8 tanks in full Dreadnaught. More DPS -- and rogue DPS especially -- makes the fight faster and thus less prone to bad luck.
What we did was default our first 16 pieces of war/rog loot to warrior to get four 4/9 Dreadnaught tanks. After that, we let DKP dictate results as normal (which led to the next bunch going to rogues since they'd been forcibly hoarding points while warriors got their stuff). It worked out pretty well. Having four tanks with Dreadnaught works really nicely on fights like Patchwerk.
Thanks for the fast answer Praetorian. You guessed right, our GM is infact a Warrior (in addition, our 1st MT). We agreed on having 4 full Dreadnaught tanks (rogues and warriors agreed) , giving these 4 guys prio on all T3 drops, and after that letting the rogues grab some parts. Now, however it seems as if the conditions are changing... but I cannot see the use of gearing up warriors so fast before giving rogues the huge dps buff coming from BS (well not the belt, but the other parts... Never-ending agony ftw).
Any other opinions would be helpful, thanks anyway though.
We made a similar deal. We've got 4 tanks now with the 4pc bonus including me, and we're gearing 2-3 more up. In return, Rogues get preference on all the trinkets, rings, cloaks etc until we're done with that (along with hunters). They all got their Deathdealers pieces first too, so noone is really undergeared for the place, and any leftover warrior/rog pieces are theirs, of course.
We killed Gothik yesterday so with a fresh reset we'll be looking at the 4 Horsemen this week I expect. I'm not familiar with the fight either but I've read enough about them to know you need excellent coordination and teamwork. The 4pc bonus is basically just that, a bonus so your taunt resists are less which makes it "easier". I guess we'll see how the fight goes right now with 4 tanks with it and work it out from there, there's been a few guilds who killed them without a lot of 4pc bonusses.
I dont know if this has already been adressed... I did a search but couldnt find anything, so if it has been discussed already, please redirect me to that post / thread.
Now, on to my question. What kind of equipment should tanks use this fight? My guild has currently downed 5 bosses in Nax (Anub, Faerlina, Maexxna, Instructor and Noth) and has C'thun on farm status. Our GM has decided that we need to gear up 7-8 warriors (or something like that) in max Dreadnaught to be able to take the 4H... which I believe is a bit of a procrastination.
So what do you guys say? Do we need 7-8 Dreadnaught tanks or not?
I think the word you're looking for is "exaggeration".
We killed Gothik yesterday so with a fresh reset we'll be looking at the 4 Horsemen this week I expect. I'm not familiar with the fight either but I've read enough about them to know you need excellent coordination and teamwork. The 4pc bonus is basically just that, a bonus so your taunt resists are less which makes it "easier". I guess we'll see how the fight goes right now with 4 tanks with it and work it out from there, there's been a few guilds who killed them without a lot of 4pc bonusses.
Basically. I think that once you have the execution down, "bad luck" will wipe you. There are three ways to minimize that bad luck: 1) bring more warriors; 2) have more warriors with 4/9 DN to reduce the chance of resists; 3) have more DPS so the fight ends faster and improbable events thus have less time to occur.
We only had 3 warriors with the 4piece for our first kill, although since then we have been prioritizing warriors and have gotten 3 more warriors with the 4 piece. It cuts down on the randomness without a doubt but it isn't as necessary as your GM probably thinks. Having 8 warriors with full dreadnaught seems counterproductive as well, since most of them won't be tanking anything other than the horsemen, who don't hit very hard.
Question Ive been asking myself.
Given that Saphiron died the reset after the world first on 4H and Kel thuzad was taken to 1% twice (and likely would be dead either by DnT, Nihilum or both were it not for both having him despawn); are 4H Too hard for their place in the instance ? (Or the last two bossess too easy?) Im not sure I like the idea that Saphiron and Kel are your reward for beating 4H in the way Grobbulous and Gluth are viewed once you beat Patch.
Where did you see that Kel was taken to 1% twice before despawning?
Saph takes lots of FrR crafting to beat, and I wouldn't say he is a reward boss.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Gurg in your estimation do you think the 4H encounter is properly balanced for what most would consider a standard 40 man raiding group?
I'm really not the one to ask because we haven't killed them. But yes, I think the 4H are remarkable in that it proves that Blizzard can design a killable boss with a weeks-long learning curve. Every other boss in the game has either died relatively quickly, to someone, or has proven to be unbeatable.
Edit: There's an interview at worldofraids.com with Nihilum's raid leader (I think?) and he says that he thinks Sapphiron is harder than 4H, but 4H have a much tougher learning curve. The Four Horsemen are pretty much as complex a fight as Blizzard has ever designed, and the fact that it is possible to plausibly debate the merits of a dozen different strategies at length suggests as much. I'm sure that once someone releases a video and the world can see that, ok, this strat will work for sure, you'll see them die much faster. One of the hardest part of the 4H is arriving at a strat that really works. It can be deceptive -- sometimes you think you just need to improve your execution more and it'll be fine, or that you just got really unlucky, when actually the underlying strat is wrong. That's part of what makes the learning curve so steep -- and they are really unforgiving so most screwups will rapidly result in a wipe.
Stupid newbie question: Is it really necessary to have 8 tanks for the 4H fight? Granted, my understanding of the fight is entirely based on hearsay and theorycraft, but I can't imagine a fight being balanced such that it required 8 of a single class. Or is having 8 warriors just granting you that larger margin for error?
Stupid newbie question: Is it really necessary to have 8 tanks for the 4H fight? Granted, my understanding of the fight is entirely based on hearsay and theorycraft, but I can't imagine a fight being balanced such that it required 8 of a single class. Or is having 8 warriors just granting you that larger margin for error?
Margin for error. XI has posted as much on these forums -- basically you "need" 6 tanks. More just gives you more margin for error.
Question Ive been asking myself.
Given that Saphiron died the reset after the world first on 4H and Kel thuzad was taken to 1% twice (and likely would be dead either by DnT, Nihilum or both were it not for both having him despawn); are 4H Too hard for their place in the instance ? (Or the last two bossess too easy?) Im not sure I like the idea that Saphiron and Kel are your reward for beating 4H in the way Grobbulous and Gluth are viewed once you beat Patch.
The one thing to remember about Sapphiron, is the need for frost resistance and more importantly the need for frozen runes. While guilds were/are still learning the 4H encounter, they are accumulating a good amount of frozen runes. When a wave of second tier guilds start going through Naxx and see the strategy for 4H, they might get 4H down in a couple of days, but still not have enough frozen runes for the frost resist gear they need to kill Sapphiron. It might take a couple of weeks to accumulate enough runes.
Then again, the preference (almost need) to gear warriors in T3 for the 4H might remain the true cock-block, provided they don't nerf the encounter (I really hope they don't)
Originally Posted by Praetorian
My sole vanity as a raid leader is to give myself an spriest at the expense of my fellow resto shamans. But they have better gear than I do, so fuck them.
Margin for error. XI has posted as much on these forums -- basically you "need" 6 tanks. More just gives you more margin for error.
For every tank less than 8 you'll count the days you're wasting compared to just having 8.
If true, that makes this one of the most terribly balanced encounters released yet. I doubt they intend for the raid to have that many warriors. If it presently is required then expect the nerfbat to come soon.
Well I don't see why some raids couldn't use druids here, but this might fall on Blizzard for slacking on the itemization.
You can. I'm sure many will. You're going to want that druid to actually have tanking gear and be a tank spec though. That may be just as hard to find as an 8th warrior.
This game has been warrior heavy on many encounters in the past, 4H is just a repeat. Think Vaelastrasz. The fight will likely be retuned.
Question Ive been asking myself.
Given that Saphiron died the reset after the world first on 4H and Kel thuzad was taken to 1% twice (and likely would be dead either by DnT, Nihilum or both were it not for both having him despawn); are 4H Too hard for their place in the instance ? (Or the last two bossess too easy?) Im not sure I like the idea that Saphiron and Kel are your reward for beating 4H in the way Grobbulous and Gluth are viewed once you beat Patch.
How come no is speculating that Kel thuzad doesn't have a phase 2. Blizzard is notorious for having a seperate phase for their boss fights, it just seems too easy that guilds can have kel thuzad down soo soon, after starting to attempt.
Well blizzard did say kelthuad encounter wasnt completely working on ptr didnt they, they wanted us to test everything but kelthuad. But then again blizzard says alot of things haha
Well blizzard did say kelthuad encounter wasnt completely working on ptr didnt they, they wanted us to test everything but kelthuad. But then again blizzard says alot of things haha
Uh, I'm not talking about the Naxx PTR. I'm talking about 2-3 weeks ago on the 1.12 PTR when Naxx was complete.
09/06/06, 10:01 AM
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