Managing debuffs, how do YOU do it? The warlock v fire mage problem - Page 4

Fermion · 09/07/06, 5:48 AM

limiting all the warlocks to one corruption total is just cruel.

Boevis · 09/07/06, 7:14 AM

DPS classes should always spec for maximum Raid DPS. If there's only 1 Fire Mage in the guild, Improved Scorch isn't making as much of a difference as Improved Shadowbolt. By the same token, if you only have 5 Mages and 2 Warlocks, CoS and CoA aren't going to help as much as CoR and CoE, and Improved Shadowbolt and Corruption won't be as helpful. If you have 5 warlocks, with them all using Corruption, 2 using CoA, and Imp Shadowbolt shows up constantly, yet they can't outdamage your mages, you're going to be better off if they don't bump other debuffs with their DoTs

There's the Debuffs that are going to happen due to proccing off : Deep Wounds, Fireball, Ignite, Improved Scorch, Improved Shadowbolt, Winters Chill, Thunderfury x2
There's the Debuffs that need to happen: Taunt, Sunder, FF, CoE, CoR, IS

Farstrider · 09/07/06, 7:16 AM

Erm nobody's said this yet but isn't the debuff limit being raised to 40 to get round exactly this problem?

Hober · 09/07/06, 7:56 AM

Originally Posted by Moos3d

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2121/ignitexu4.gif

And yeah that damage meter is correct.

How long after that was he insta-gibbed by thadd?

Bibdy · 09/07/06, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Farstrider

Erm nobody's said this yet but isn't the debuff limit being raised to 40 to get round exactly this problem?

Yes, but until that happens, people need to be smart about debuff usage.

Nfariessence · 09/07/06, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Copernicus

BTW, the real solution to warlcoks complaining about Fireball knocking off their DoTs is to bring more fire mages and less warlocks. :P

And just what do you do in the expansion when you only have 25 man raids? One mage being forced to spec deep Frost for the uber Brilliance Aura to for your healers, one mage being forced to spec deep Arcane for the Slow debuff on bosses... that leaves you with 1, maybe 2 mages for Fire? Can 1-2 Fire mages build and sustain Ignite stacks at even the level they have today? Given that, do you even bring a Fire mage since they lack the utility of other mage trees and don't have anyone to synergize with?

Warlocks are looking to make out quite well in the expansion. We still have our trinity of curses, plus newfound viability in Curse of Weakness that will be -130 damage (-195 when Amped) to the entire raid as well as synergy from Soul Siphon, Improved Shadowbolt and Incinerate doing additional damage when a target has Immolate up. Also, with the addition of Fel Armor, Soul Leech and the incredibly powerful Soul Siphon, as well as new ranks of Drain Life, warlocks gain a measure of self-sustainability they never had before.

So.... what do you do in the expansion? Try to re-recruit the warlocks you shelved in 1.11-1.12 for raiding again? Keep your 6-10 mages on a 2-raid per week rotation? Have your mages reroll? The Burning Crusade will change alot of things.

Maledict · 09/07/06, 12:41 PM

Can 1-2 Fire mages build and sustain Ignite stacks at even the level they have today? Given that, do you even bring a Fire mage since they lack the utility of other mage trees and don't have anyone to synergize with?

I can roll my own ignites in raids, as often I'm the only fire mage. Doesn't happen hugely, and you dont rol them for long, but you definitely get an increase in the damage you do from careful playing and timing.

Also, you bring fire mages because they have a large DPS lead over other specs. You don't *need* to synergise - without rolling ignites fire mages have a 100DPS + lead on other mages. With rolling ignites and the new mage talents as they currently stand, things get even sillier.

Bibdy · 09/07/06, 1:34 PM

I think we're going to see a grand humiliation of Mages in TBC once Warlocks are capable of using all of their DOTs on a single target. There's not a mage alive that can out-DPS me on a single target when I use Immo, COA, Corruption and bolt spam combined. On the other hand, I burn through mana like a crazy mofo. Thanks 1.12 lifetap!

Nurru · 09/07/06, 1:40 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that with Mage passive threat reduction being reduced by 66% it gives a higher chance that a crazy ignite chain will pull aggro and kill the mage. Invisibility is a proactive approach to dealing with threat, it won't save you in a case like that.

Then again, in the expansion with 25 man raids it'll be harder to prolong ignites and by then totems may not work in a braindead fashion so mages may have Tranquil Air + Blessing of Salvation.

Now as for grand humiliation of mages, depending on the encounter design I just don't see that happening. Frost and Arcane mages can both be incredibly mana efficient with impressive regeneration abilities. On longer fights we can dps fully with just our personal mana regen, whereas Warlocks will need the attention of healers to sustain themselves. Warlocks certainly will have much improved dps, but don't give up on us yet.

Bibdy · 09/07/06, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

On longer fights we can dps fully with just our personal mana regen, whereas Warlocks will need the attention of healers to sustain themselves.

Both a blessing and a curse.

Moos3d · 09/07/06, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Hober

Originally Posted by Moos3d

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2121/ignitexu4.gif

And yeah that damage meter is correct.

How long after that was he insta-gibbed by thadd?

I'm not sure if he pulled aggro at all. This was back in 1.11 with fetish + salv.

NuType · 09/22/06, 1:56 PM

My guild has been talking a fair amount about this subject recently. I have a couple questions about the list given in the OP. These questions revolve around two facts about our guild...

1. We are Horde so for now no Pallies.

2. After over a year of clearing MC every week, we have never got a thunderfury... =*(

So with those two facts we free up 4 slots on that list in the OP. Now that our locks have a little more wiggle room for DoTs should we take them, or are things like Insect swarm more important?

Also we tend to not use Gift of Arthas on fights that the tank doesnâ€™t need SR. Do you use it on all boss fights?

snape · 09/22/06, 3:10 PM

There's so much mis-information about Fire Mages in this thread, but in short:

1. 1000 damage Ignite ticks are 500 dps, not 333.

2. Also, Ignite is a high priority debuff, I have <never> seen it pushed off.

3. It is possible to have extremely high spell power and extremely high crit, with either spec (frost or fire)

4. Fireball is a LOW priority debuff, any fire mage can tell you practically 90% of the time on a boss fight, we never see that little "27" over the boss's head.

5. The highest damage, and most important debuff slots as a result, are Ignite, CoE, Sunder Armor, Fire Vulnerability, and Winter's Chill (if you happen to have frost mages - of our 8 raiding mages, only one is Frost, and he gets smoked even by the lowest fire mage).

6. To get a measure of the true benefit of a group of fire mages on Loatheb, don't look at the highest and lowest, do an average over all of them. We are always in the top 3.

Sancus · 09/22/06, 3:14 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that with Mage passive threat reduction being reduced by 66%

Mage Passive threat reduction is NOT being reduced for Horde(it's actually being increased), and we do fine as-is.

One mage being forced to spec deep Frost for the uber Brilliance Aura to for your healers

There is no such thing as a Brilliance Aura.

snape · 09/22/06, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Crazypie

Originally Posted by altairian

A warlock dot does 100 dps? Ignites are commonly 1000+ dps. You're barking up the wrong tree.

But you can't really credit that to one mage. You have to see how many mages collectively add to it don't you? So if you had 5 fire mages going at it, it'd be more like 200 dps.

This is a non sequiter. Unless mana is an issue, the fact is that the debuff slot is there to do max damage, and clearly, a 1000 ignite tick (which I might add, is a bit wimpy) is better than your uber-corruption tick of 300 any day (not the least of which because yours ticks every 3 seconds, and ours is every 2).