Managing debuffs, how do YOU do it? The warlock v fire mage problem - Page 5

snape · 09/22/06, 3:18 PM

Remember when there were 6 debuff slots?

thebuddha · 09/22/06, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Moos3d

Originally Posted by Hober

Originally Posted by Moos3d

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2121/ignitexu4.gif

And yeah that damage meter is correct.

How long after that was he insta-gibbed by thadd?

I'm not sure if he pulled aggro at all. This was back in 1.11 with fetish + salv.

He didn't (Fetish used to give what seemed like 0 threat). Even with huge ignites early on none of our mages had aggro problems until 1.12. Now, we usually have our non-fetish mages not use Fire until ~80%. The DPS requirement for Thaddius isn't really the challenge so it's not a big deal. I recall one time where I popped my combustion at 84% only to get two fireball crits, stop casting, have my ignite roll to ~30k and get 1 shotted. I just use frostbolts to start now.

Edit:

I guess I should contribute something to the actual thread...I raided on a warlock for ~9 months before I got frustrated with soul shards, debuff limits, and the CoS nerf (well nerf for warlocks; buff for mages). I am much happier raiding on my mage.

When I switch classes for encounters like Loatheb et al. the first thing I think is: how many hunters and warlocks can I drop for real DPS classes? I'm sure someone can post a damage meter that will attempt to prove how viable X class is on Y encounter but that really ignores the average case which is what most people will rely on. So I guess the answer to the OP is not how to manage debuffs but how to manage number of each class :)

Leviandan · 09/22/06, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by snape

Remember when there were 6 debuff slots?

8?

probiscus · 09/22/06, 3:26 PM

How people argue that ignite isn't straight up fucking broken is beyond me.

snape · 09/22/06, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Leviandan

Originally Posted by snape

Remember when there were 6 debuff slots?

8?

Yeah! Some single digit number!

Leviandan · 09/22/06, 3:28 PM

It was 8 :p Doubled to 16, and "soon" to be 40!

• Shalas · 09/22/06, 3:40 PM

Originally Posted by NuType

Also we tend to not use Gift of Arthas on fights that the tank doesnâ€™t need SR. Do you use it on all boss fights?

With the MT, 5 rogues, a DW Fury warrior, a 2h Fury warrior and three hunters with Ashjre'thul attacking a boss, you get around:

.5 attacks/second from the MT
10 attacks/second from rogues
1.3 attacks/second from the DW warrior
.4 attacks/second from the 2h warrior
1.6 attacks/second from the hunters

Total of ~14 attacks/second, or 112 dps (pre-armor?) -- and that's with a physical dps-light raid. It's a great use of a debuff slot. On some fights you may not have the buff slots on your MT for it, though.

Northerner · 09/22/06, 4:09 PM

Fire mages are presently enjoying really insane synergy but it really does rely on having a minumum of three to be worth setting up. I am almost positive that this will be a moot point in BC though and frankly, I think fire will be a dead spec for 25 person raids. Of course fire will be a nice personal damage spec still but in a raid environment you just can't ignore the options that arc or frost will bring. That saddens me a bit really but hey, I've enjoyed the dps role while I've had it.

snape · 09/22/06, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Northerner

Fire mages are presently enjoying really insane synergy but it really does rely on having a minumum of three to be worth setting up. I am almost positive that this will be a moot point in BC though and frankly, I think fire will be a dead spec for 25 person raids. Of course fire will be a nice personal damage spec still but in a raid environment you just can't ignore the options that arc or frost will bring. That saddens me a bit really but hey, I've enjoyed the dps role while I've had it.

You must be joking - even without a rolling Ignite, you are still good solo DPS (of course augmented with extras). While I admit our DPS will take a dive, it won't be a long or particularly hard fall.

Bibdy · 09/22/06, 4:18 PM

Weren't you guys going bananas over the Molten Fury talent in that other thread, that it made the other trees obsolete?

Tempestra · 09/22/06, 5:16 PM

Fire mages will most certainly not be dead in the expansion. We have no clue what our water elemental is, but even it's hot sex the rest of the upper frost tree leaves a lot to be desired. Upper arcane is pretty good too, but can you imagine the mana cost of trying to keep slow up on a boss continuously? From what I've seen, it's around 450 mana a cast and lasts for 20 seconds -- hello 1350 mana every minute... Better to use thunderclap and/or TF.

Mage execute, Playing with fire, Mini AP against dazed targets, 20% more +dmg on our fireballs... I think our new toys are just as good as, if not better than, the other trees. *With the current information available - which is always subject to change,* I don't expect to change specs.

snape · 09/22/06, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tempestra

Fire mages will most certainly not be dead in the expansion. We have no clue what our water elemental is, but even it's hot sex the rest of the upper frost tree leaves a lot to be desired. Upper arcane is pretty good too, but can you imagine the mana cost of trying to keep slow up on a boss continuously? From what I've seen, it's around 450 mana a cast and lasts for 20 seconds -- hello 1350 mana every minute... Better to use thunderclap and/or TF.

Mage execute, Playing with fire, Mini AP against dazed targets, 20% more +dmg on our fireballs... I think our new toys are just as good as, if not better than, the other trees. *With the current information available - which is always subject to change,* I don't expect to change specs.

Playing with fire is totally stupid. They should switch the %ages so that you get a bigger increase in damage out than you do damage in.

That would be worth talent points.

Aren't talents supposed to give us abilities that make us stronger?

It's the equivalent of giving us Imp Scorch - except that it also gives the mage a debuff that increases fire damage done to use by 30%.

Tempestra · 09/22/06, 6:39 PM

Situational, yes. Totally stupid, no.

There are a ton of fights where you aren't getting hit by magic damage, or where 6% more magic damage taken would be insignificant. Likewise, there are times when 3% more dps means nothing, but there are timed fights where you want to squeeze every ounce of throw-down that you can come up with...

And yes I agree that the % should be switched to something like piercing ice with slight drawbacks.

Again, it'll all depend on the types of fights that we see in the expansion. If there are numerous AE-heavy fights, it'll do more harm than good. If there aren't, then no worries hello 3% more dps.

edit: This is why I'd be hesitant to call any spec "dead" at this juncture - we have no idea what context in which to look at these talents.

GrizleyCQ · 09/23/06, 5:19 AM

Its simple.

We tell all the warlocks but 2 to go sit outside in case we need healthstones or maybe a soulstone. Those 2 warlocks in the raid use recklessness and elements.

Currently warlocks are just not a dps class and there are no encounter mechanics in naxx that use them.

Leviandan · 09/23/06, 5:42 AM

Originally Posted by GrizleyCQ

Currently warlocks are just not a dps class and there are no encounter mechanics in naxx that use them.

Noth. People on the wall at Maexxna. Hell, even Anub'Rekhan. This has been said a hundred times before, but if you only bring two warlocks then of course they won't do good damage. Bring 5 and some of them will be able to use CoS/CoA and their damage increases significantly.