Wasn't slow like 450 mana, meaning that it would take a bare minimum of 1350 mana / minute to keep up? This as opposed to a warrior in Battle Stance using Imp Thunderclap for 80 rage / minute. (Or, in other words, provided rage generation doesn't change, 2800 dmg / minute. 1350 mana, for me, is a bit more than 2800 dmg, more like 3000 on my least efficient spell. (AM), up to 4.5k on Fireball and 5k for Scorch, not including debuffs. This is also provided that I use the current ranks, but that's a whole different story. I can't really see it change _that_ much as far as DPM is concerned. And as far as the magic is concerned, CoT is so ridiculously more powerful than Slow.

Remember that when the Mage's damage goes up considerably due to ignite stacking on one guy, so does his threat. Of course, if you're Alliance you might as well just disregard this. Bastards.

after a few...fun..experinces with this all our mages are running ignite mods and actually will call over vent if needed 'Ignite off!' which is when they take time to evoc and the like so as not to die.

It's been a very good thing for our dps. Not so great for thier suvivablity (wtb salvation).

I missed this comment the first time. How do you figure Horde isn't losing passive threat reduction when talents are dropping from 30% to 10% reduction in threat? If you want to factor in BoS / TAT I suppose you can justify the comment, but it doesn't invalidate my claim. I had to fight tooth and nail to get a shaman in my group in the past, I doubt bringing 2-3 of them max per raid is going to help this. The fact that our talents are going from 30 to 10% can't be argued.

Ok now you're just plain lying.

For us-

1) Demo
2) Sunder
3) TF
4) TF
5) CoE
6) CoR
7) CoS
8) Scorch
9) Hunter's mark
10) FF
11) Shadow Weaving
12) SP dot of choice (pain, flay, pick one)
13-16) Happy Fun Time

This will not make your warlocks happy.

So far it's helped us a lot, you can probably give 2 of those slots to warlocks (we're still very much in shakedown phases for this stuff) if you don't have a shadow priest. It really feels like Ignite is only bumped if it has failed to be refreshed before enough debuffs hit to bump it. Depending how often you're firing debuffs I think 3 or so should be enough buffer, but ymmv.

A frost mage can beat an ignite starved mage by a significant margin (especially on Loatheb), but saying we beat the one with the ignites is absolute crazytalk.

Aside from Gluth, Grobbulus, Noth, Heigan, Anub'rekan, Razuvious, and Faerlina you might have a point.

And Gothik? I beat everyone there sync'd and all most of the time. Conflag spec reigns supreme for that fight.

And if you take away the fire mages precious overpowered ignite on Loatheb, I can beat them too there, even without the shadow boosting talents SM or DS+Succubus.

If your warlocks aren't doing well, they just aren't very good.

But thats ok because on Loatheb, its not like 250k or so of the damage is from COR, 130k from COE, and 45k from COS counts for anything.

This doesn't really say anything. A fire mage without ignite is reduced to 150% crits with a 3 second cast, a frost mage will beat them in flat damage.

Ever tried using 4-5 warlocks keeping back those adds on Noth instead of 9 total DPS classes single targetting them?

"Wait, are you telling me that 4-5 warlocks can unload as much DPS using DOTs and DOTs alone on 3 targets as 9 single target DPS classes can?"

Yes.

My personal experience during Naxx and AQ40 tells me that warlocks who for whatever reason get to use debuffs, and thus reach their actual damage potential, will night always outdamage every caster excluding ignite holders. They do need a fairly large amount of debuff slots to pull this off, however, which is where mages trump them. Fire needs improved scorch and ignite, while frost needs only winter's chill (ignoring Curse of Elements) to reach their optimal levels of damage. Cursed be the fireball DoT, bloody thing is worse than deep wounds, but there's not much that can be done about it.

We usually run raids with 6 - 7 mages and 3 - 5 warlocks (y'know, sometimes you lack some here, etc), and have officially scrapped all our frost mages as a result of everyone getting hoocked on ignite. Even our hardcore 1 - 60 frost-through-all-AQ40 master of the cold hasn't looked back after discovering a near 20% increase in average damage output during the vents that he doesn't get ignite, not to mention when he does.

Also, while I don't have very much experience with this since, as mentioned above, all our mages respecced to fire relatively early after entering Naxx, I never saw any of the frost mages outdamage and of the fire mages any of the times when I took the time to study whatever damage listing was being used at the time.

Anyway, ranting aside, I wonder what they're gonna do with mages in TBC. If they're finally letting warlocks unfold with all the debuffs their black hearts may desire, I don't really see mages outdamaging them on anything but encounters involving lots and lots of AoE against mobs that are highly shadow and fire resistant, especially considering you're going to have less mages, which means less rolling ignites - though they'll probably nerf/'fix' it anyway. Unless they're making crowd control such as poly and AoE root/slows required, what's the point of bringing a mage along?

I'm getting worried, my minority complex is kicking in :(