Yes, Nihilum killed Kel'Thuzad - Page 9

♦ Praetorian · 09/08/06, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by spronk

wtf was up with that naga spawning in the middle of that 4h video? lol

The naga is the embodiment of "guys really, I swear on my screen was I standing in the right spot!!"

Switchblade · 09/08/06, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Originally Posted by oldmandennis

Anybody else notice the name of the NPC where you turn the phylactery in?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/

http://tezaa.free.fr/phylactery.jpg

Wow. I've probably walked by that guy a hundred times and never noticed it.

Thats it? Im abit disappointed from a lore standpoint. Hand it to the priest.. heres 5 gold and a trinket. BYE =\

duostrike · 09/08/06, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Thats it? Im abit disappointed from a lore standpoint. Hand it to the priest.. heres 5 gold and a trinket. BYE =\

My name is Inigo Montoy you killed my father, prepare to die.

But yea, those rewards/quest leave something to be desired.

DeeNogger · 09/08/06, 4:12 PM

i read an interview/comment by a Nihilum guy, something along the lines of saying that the difficulty of 4hm is rediculously over stated, and how its so easy. Having no knowledge of the fight other than what i read/see through the eyes of more advanced guilds, i think he is kinda being unfair. looking back on things past is always 20/20.

Its like 'wheres waldo?" once you find him, its so easy to see him again and again. and you can even look back on yourself and say 'god, i was an idiot for not seeing him'. But until you find him for the first time, its quite difficult.

*edit* wow, quite the rambeling post i just made

Lum · 09/08/06, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Once someone releases a full video of a kill, then it may be different. But from the perspective of someone coming up with strats from scratch, the 4H are way, way more complicated than any other encounter prior to them.

Well what do we have here: http://files.filefront.com/4hmwmv/;5.../fileinfo.html

So much buttrock. :(

• Vykromond · 09/08/06, 4:24 PM

http://files.filefront.com/4hmwmv/;5.../fileinfo.html

I got through exactly one minute of this video before laughing myself silly. "First World Kill Without Servo-Arm, Maexxna's Fang, Death's Sting drops... JUST Fetish of the Sand Reaver"

Man, when BB gets to the Four Horsemen I'm going to make a self-congratulatory video with some blasting death metal and the words "WORLD'S FIRST KILL WITH NO MAGE STAFF FROM NEFARIAN" making a PowerPoint slide transition onto the screen.

Jih · 09/08/06, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Derketo

Originally Posted by Jih

The portals are just there for eye candy basically.

About the whole difficulty thing, i honestly think the 4horsies are overrated.
People didnt have too go and make excel time tables, or hang up notes on their monitor and see if things would fit. From the first day we engaged them we knew what we had too do, we didnt leave that night with the idea "ok so wtf are we supposed to do now".
The only reason it took so long for certain guilds was because you needed the gear and enough warriors for them, imo that doesnt make them hard it just takes you longer too execute the strat you came up with.

And i still think Sapphiron and Khel'T are harder than the 4horsies, when we engaged the blue dragon for the second time i actually was a bit worried that we would wipe even tho we still had all the buffs from loatheb, when we fought the horsemen for the second time it already felt on farm.

I would also put Khel'thuzad above the horsemen and saph, there is just so much going on during the fight and most of it is random. I dont want too spoil that much because i know people like too find out stuff for themself but i honestly think it's one of the most awesome all out fight there is atm. You have to be on your toes during the whole fight.
A lot of people keep saying that both Saph and Khel are so easy and point towards the horsemen but i'm fairly sure that when you give them a try you will change your mind.

Dont mean to piss in your cheerios or anything here, but basically what you're saying is the mobs arent easy, you're just that awesome. Lets be honest, yes you guys were at the top of your game, yes the mobs most likely arent very easy. However, they both took you a shorter time to learn than some winged bosses. I highly doubt it's coincidence at this point. At the very least, you could say the learning curve on them is much shorter than some other things you've ran into in the zone previously.

Anyways gratz, I have nothing but respect for you guys. I know how much time you've put in.

I'm in no way talking for the rest of the guild thats just how i feel.

We're not awesome or whatever you can come up with, whatever we can do anyone else can do i also dont think the learning curve is much shorther. The difference is there wasnt one fight in naxx which we so "desperately" wanted too beat.

Just on the first day of Khel tries we used 120 flask titans, 2 zg hearts 1 x songflower and around 60frost pots for each person.
All of that makes you learn stuff a lot faster you just try too brute force it so you can get to the next phase fast and see what he does.
We didnt do that on the horsemen, we didnt do that on loatheb or any other fight. We just took it easy and tried them a few hours a day.
With khel we raided untill 4am people got a few hours of sleep went too work, came back and went for a full night again so we could clear asap to him.

I find saph harder because he's just a scary big ass dragon thats just how i feel, i dont feel "safe" yet when engaging him. with the horsemen i'm fairly confident we can kill them each week without much trouble. There are people in the guild who dont agree and find the horsemen harder but hey cant always agree with each other.

Since there is a horsemen movie out and tons of threads there nothing much too spoil about the horsies.
With the horsemen strat we were just "lucky", we started with moving the horsemen and just 4 groups in each corner. One try we had ppl stay in the middle and noticed they didnt get the mark and it just clicked for us. We pretty much had a general idea of how too keep thane covered. And here is why i think they werent that hard, the day we managed too get 8 warriors in the raid (Praise the server transfers ! \o/) we got 2 of the horsemen down too 10% that was the first day of trying it with 8 tanks. The next day they died.

And on a whole different not the movies ;p

I personally always liked movies, i just find it cool too see others beat an encounter but it's nice if people can wait with releasing movies untill a couple of dozen guilds downed the guys. I mean the wow player base is huge and a lot of people wont see what we as raiders see, so i can imagine that movies are a nice treat for many of them. I know i would enjoy them even more if i didnt raid.

♦ Praetorian · 09/08/06, 4:57 PM

With the horsemen strat we were just "lucky", we started with moving the horsemen and just 4 groups in each corner. One try we had ppl stay in the middle and noticed they didnt get the mark and it just clicked for us. We pretty much had a general idea of how too keep thane covered. And here is why i think they werent that hard, the day we managed too get 8 warriors in the raid (Praise the server transfers ! \o/) we got 2 of the horsemen down too 10% that was the first day of trying it with 8 tanks. The next day they died.

I'd be lying if I said this weren't mildly frustrating to read. We've never done serious Horsemen attempts with more than 6 tanks, and it really hurts. We had a similar evolution, starting out by moving the horsemen and then realizing that you sacrificed your middle safe-zone by doing that, etc. But with only 6 taunters, nothing ever really seemed to "gel" beyond that. One taunt screwup that delays the rotation, and suddenly the next tank in line is stranded eating 5 or more marks. Have any of the 4H kills been accomplished without stacking warriors? Every killshot I can find has 8, which seems to be, shall we say, suboptimal design.

• Chicken · 09/08/06, 5:02 PM

It might be the design idea was "Hey let's force people to use Druid tanks". Unfortunately taunt resist rates and the only reasonable way to alleviate it somewhat being the 4-piece Dreadnaught bonus, along with Warrior tanking itemization simply being better pretty much kill that.
Plus I'm not even sure if the Druid's version of Taunt and the Warrior version are still equal since the recent changes to Taunt...

FridÃ©n · 09/08/06, 5:02 PM

Indeed, my guild finds this 8 taunter requirement EXTREMELY frustrating as we don't even have 6 regular raiding warriors.

• Chicken · 09/08/06, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Margot

Originally Posted by Chicken

It might be the design idea was "Hey let's force people to use Druid tanks". Unfortunately taunt resist rates and the only reasonable way to alleviate it somewhat being the 4-piece Dreadnaught bonus, along with Warrior tanking itemization simply being better pretty much kill that.
Plus I'm not even sure if the Druid's version of Taunt and the Warrior version are still equal since the recent changes to Taunt...

For one thing, druids often have +spell hit gear, so this may not be such a bad idea.

I'm not too sure about that, but would the +spellhit gear available to Druids also be suitable as tanking gear? There's really not much leather gear with +spellhit I can think of. And obviously you wouldn't want to wear cloth when tanking.

♦ Praetorian · 09/08/06, 5:21 PM

Err, your druids have Neltharion's Tear...?

In any event, gear is still a factor, as well as spec. You need not only to taunt, but also to hold aggro over t3-geared people who are DPSing pretty hard.

Plus, it still implicates a different form of raid stacking -- you need to bring in more healers to make up for the druids who are your usual healers suddenly acting as tanks.

It's just frustrating being faced with a situation where guilds are having to recruit specifically to beat a certain fight. Didn't pretty much every guild who's downed them recruit tanks just for this fight? I know I've certainly seen "Looking for Naxx-experienced/geared tanks" on most top guilds' homepages.

Fres · 09/08/06, 5:24 PM

Part of me is really hoping that those posts and class-stacking are simply part of the drive to be first, or at least competitively-ranked, not due to the basic requirements of the fight.

duostrike · 09/08/06, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Margot

Originally Posted by Chicken

I'm not too sure about that, but would the +spellhit gear available to Druids also be suitable as tanking gear? There's really not much leather gear with +spellhit I can think of. And obviously you wouldn't want to wear cloth when tanking.

Neltharion's tear +2
Soul corrupter's neck +1
Not at the +5 of DN, but I'm sure someone can find a few more pieces.

C'thun quest ring (ring of the fallen god). +1 hit
Cloak of consumption/C'thun Cloak +1 hit
Bag of Whammies +1 hit
Jin'do's Judgement/AQ40 regailia staff +2 hit

Sac'ing one slot for cloth.
Angelista's Grasp +2 hit

♦ Praetorian · 09/08/06, 5:29 PM

Uh, so you're listing items that a warrior could wear too, right? But a warrior never would, would he? Why not? Because he'd be sacrificing too much armor to wear a goddamned Angelista's Grasp. And why are druids any different? Come on, think before you post.

• Chicken · 09/08/06, 5:30 PM

As Gurgthock pointed out above, those +spellhit items are good for +spellhit, but are they good enough as far as tanking goes? Druids are, as far as I know, largely reliant on having high attack power and crit for threat generation as their primary threat generating ability is based on a multiplier. They might taunt and hold a Horseman succesfully, but can they hold one succesfully through a tanking period while the Horseman is being DPSed?
Sure, you could set it up so that the Druid tanks aren't tanking on a Horseman you're DPSing, but then the question is still whether they have enough mitigation, and wether your raid has enough healing without stacking in some extra healer classes.

duostrike · 09/08/06, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Uh, so you're listing items that a warrior could wear too, right? But a warrior never would, would he? Why not? Because he'd be sacrificing too much armor to wear a goddamned Angelista's Grasp. And why are druids any different? Come on, think before you post.

I'm not suggesting that a warrior would wear these but for a druid who needed the hit (and it is indeed "that" important) perhaps it would be ok. Some of these items are not that far out from what a druid could/would have.

Bibdy · 09/08/06, 5:34 PM

Wait...does +spell hit even affect taunt?

Time to pump out the Bloodvine gear for 4HM attempts!!

Kasi · 09/08/06, 5:35 PM

Is one of the horsemen more of a physical hitting guy where a druid could do well with the high mitigation they have? I know Mograine has a pretty high magic component to his attacks, but not sure on the others. One would think that a full feral druid with all the AQ40 gear (plus the piece or two from Naxx) might be able to fill in. It's not like 4 piece DN takes away all taunt resists, it just lowers the chance. I'm hoping that some guild can manage to work it with a 6 warrior/2 druid mix.

Oaken · 09/08/06, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

In any event, gear is still a factor, as well as spec. You need not only to taunt, but also to hold aggro over t3-geared people who are DPSing pretty hard.

I thought it was pretty well accepted that Druid aggro still scaled better than Warrior aggro; or does T3 somehow catapult Warriors ahead of AQ-wearing druids? It is damage mitigation that kills us.

Having said that, its still kind of a moot point. Druids already suffer from less damage mitigation and the loss you would take to wear spell-hit gear makes you very flimsy indeed. Not to mention that your feral druids are less likely than any of your other druids to have spell-hit gear.

♦ Praetorian · 09/08/06, 5:39 PM

A druid could manage, as I've said. But the fantasy of a druid, being a caster, wearing some magical suit of +spellhit gear to make up for the 4/9 DN bonus is just that -- a fantasy. Anyway, yes, 2 druids and 6 warriors could do this, but it'd be suboptimal, and you'd still need extra healers to replace the ones used to tank. Anyway, this isn't a "Serious Discussion: Four Horsemen" R&D thread, so I'm not sure there's much else to say.

Brando · 09/08/06, 5:40 PM

The issue being is that you'll be forgoing a lot of great tanking items as a druid to wear those items. Not like I have any idea what tanking any of the 4Horseman is like but I think it would be safe to assume you'd need to be in the best tanking gear possible as a druid.

Kasi · 09/08/06, 5:47 PM

Well its always seemed that EJ has quite a bit of druids, including some of the feral leaning (Bad, Chupa, I think even Beef or Shamancraft I've seen talk a lot about it) so I hope for the feral sakes you guys manage to do it without resorting to 8 warriors like the others have.

Kaubel · 09/08/06, 6:14 PM

Most of the EJ druids who raid a decent amount have good feral gear. Some have better, some are appropriately spec'd, all can ready themselves to tank if necessary. But why is it so damned important right now, for the feral druid's sake, that we force that particular strategy upon ourselves?

As entertaining as it might seem, I'd much rather take the path less travelled once we've already proven we can one-shot the encounter. Until then, my pride will concede the duty to the more able warrior class.

XI- · 09/08/06, 6:18 PM

Unfortunately Gurg, and I suppose the rest of EJ, having done the encounter, I don't forsee it being doable with less than 8 warriors (taunts). The limit, even on repeat kills is very close, and you need each and ever one of those. Probably in 3 or 4 months, when we can finish the encounter much faster, we could go down to 5 or 6 tanks, and still beat it, because you'd apply so much damage to the mobs, that it wouldn't be as damaging to have a taunt die.