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11/18/09, 6:39 PM
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#16
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Piston Honda
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Well, realistically, we'll have 15 attempts on the hard modes, since they won't be available until after Arthas is available.
It essentially works out to:
Normal: Saurfang available (Phase 1)
Normal: Plagueworks available (Phase 2): 5 attempts to kill Putress
Normal: Crimson Hall available (Phase 3): 10 attempts to kill Putress & Lana'thel
Normal: Frostwing Halls available (Phase 4): 15 attempts to kill Putress, Lana'thel, Sindragosa & Arthas
If Arthas dies, Heroic is available: 15 attempts to kill Putress, Lana'thel and Sindragosa & Arthas*
*The main thing that needs to be clarified is if it is 15 attempts total across both Normal and Heroic or if it 15 attempts in each difficulty.
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11/18/09, 6:42 PM
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#17
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Great Tiger
Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
No WoW Account (EU)
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All this encourages is having a huge roster of raiders with extensively geared alts. I've read complaints about Stars running several raids with alts first before bringing in their mains. Whether it's true or not (I honestly don't care), it's simply the best way to dodge the mechanic entirely.
For some reason I quite like the Garrosh/Wryn buff. It's a simple way of nerfing the instance without having to make continuous adjustments and, more importantly, lets people opt out if they feel they want to without. I wonder if it'll actually 'show' on kills somewhere that you got Arthas Hardmode without Varian's Aura of Awesomeness. It'd completely remove the need for e-peen flexing about how ones guild got the kill before such-and-so nerf.
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Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
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11/18/09, 6:50 PM
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#18
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Don Flamenco
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If Arthas dies, Heroic is available: 15 attempts to kill Putress, Lana'thel and Sindragosa & Arthas*
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In 3.3 you can switch a Raid Instance to Heroic Mode while you are inside, so you wouldn't be able to go after Heroic Modes until the next week.
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11/18/09, 6:52 PM
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#19
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Priest
Bronzebeard (EU)
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Originally Posted by Axanor
In 3.3 you can switch a Raid Instance to Heroic Mode while you are inside, so you wouldn't be able to go after Heroic Modes until the next week.
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But what he says is still true, unless it's already 16, 20 or whatever after the reset. That part is not yet known, except "it will go up during weeks/months".
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11/18/09, 7:17 PM
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#20
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by KamPa
But what he says is still true, unless it's already 16, 20 or whatever after the reset. That part is not yet known, except "it will go up during weeks/months".
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I was under the impression that if you killed a boss in normal mode, you would not be able to kill its heroic counterpart.
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11/18/09, 7:23 PM
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#21
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Priest
Bronzebeard (EU)
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Well yes, but this assumes that you go there next reset and it's still 15 attempts. Unless the number already increases each week after entire instance is open. Blue post isn't very specific about that part.
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11/18/09, 7:38 PM
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#22
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Piston Honda
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Right, but I was referring to a situation where you wipe say 3 times on Heroic Putress, 3 times on Heroic Lana'thel, 3 times on Heroic Sindragosa and then wipe 4 times on Heroic Arthas. If you choose to switch it to Normal at that point, would you have a full 15 attempts or would it still be only the 2 attempts left over from Heroic.
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11/18/09, 8:02 PM
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#23
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♥
Blood Elf Priest
Genjuros (EU)
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The counter is most likely instance wide, changing the difficulty will probably not affect it. The way I understand it is you get a counter at the top of your screen just like in ToGC and it increases once you successfully kill one of the specified bosses.
This is very much like the Zul'Aman timer, that increased by a specific amount when killing bear boss (+15min) or eagle boss(+10min).
Disclaimer: just a guess.
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11/18/09, 8:24 PM
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#24
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Don Flamenco
Pandaren Warrior
Dentarg (EU)
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I don't think the number increases after you kill a boss. It is simply 5 attempts total when the first 'final' boss is available, 10 with 2 final bosses, 15 with all of them and then whatever number it might increase to in the following weeks. This number will always be your total number of attempts for those end-of-wing bosses during that raid week.
The gating system seems decent overall, they can't really get around doing something like this anymore. It's also good to see that they got rid of any kind of reward for x attempts left, that was really frustrating sometimes and generally discourages getting new people into the raid for those fights. 5 attempts per phase seems really low though, especially for the normal modes. Actually I don't think there should be any kind of limitation for the normal modes unless there is some kind of technical limitation if they want this implemented for heroic mode. I think a limit on the normal modes could be really bad and frustrating for more casual guilds. As someone else already said, it will lead to alt raids for the more hardcore guilds again.
The only other thing that I don't like about this system is that a lot of the heroic modes will be unlocked during the same week with no limitation at all. This will once again give an advantage to those guilds that raid more, which I believe was the reason why this whole attempt limitation was done in the first place.
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11/18/09, 8:51 PM
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#25
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Glass Joe
Blood Elf Paladin
Argent Dawn (EU)
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My main problem with this system is the fact that it has so few attempts. 50 in togc felt pretty good, when we learned it we could spend 4-8 hours in there, depending on if we did ulduar or not. And I'd actually love to spend our entire raiding week in ICC while learning, instead of farming insanity/ulduar to fill the time once our 5-15 attempts are done for the week.
Of course, earlier bosses will still soak some time. But I don't realistically see how my guild could have fun learning bosses with that few attempts. We aren't the best I guess, but we need to wipe around a bit to learn new mechanics until we get them down. This system encourages PTR/alt raiding to an insane degree, and it'd be nice if we didn't have to do either of those to put some proper time into the final 4 encounters of a raid.
Removing insanity rewards is nice though, we're still scared of bringing new people to togc after 4 weeks running of insanity. This is 10 man, so I imagine it's worse for people running 25 mans.
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11/19/09, 3:01 AM
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#26
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by KamPa
One of reason I preferred ToC and ToGC being separate instances was the ability to do the Hard Modes without worrying about actually finishing the normal instance. While having double amount of bosses to kill was somewhat irritating, it also removed the part of Ulduar I disliked. "We still have 6 bosses to kill, should we keep trying to do Heartbreaker and risk not making it to Yogg, or just do it the easy way?". And that was even before the attempt limit appeared.
Now, it feels like worst of two system combined. You have limits in both difficulty modes, and they are shared . So, realistically, you have to shave off 1-2 tries of Hard Mode, just in case something wrong goes with Normal, otherwise you'll fail to get Arthas that reset. Then again, they might be separate, it's hard to tell that from the post. If so, it might not be that bad.
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The plus side of this system is that you're back to the Ulduar way of having some choice in which heroic mode to attempt. In ToGC, you can't exactly do Normal Beasts and then Heroic Jarraxus like you can do Normal Flame Leviathan and Hard-Mode XT-002.
And I suspect that (once everything is unlocked) you'll have less issue scheduling hard-modes within a week. If you want to do a non-end-boss Heroic mode, you can clear the Wings on normal that you don't want to try on Heroic, and then all that's left in the instance is your Heroic target, its end-boss, and Arthas. For instance, you can full-clear the instance except for Blood Prince Council, Lana'thel, and Arthas, then take shots at Blood Prince Council for a while. When you down them, you have 12-ish tries on Lana'thel Heroic before you either down her or just do her and Arthas on Normal mode. You can do the same thing for Dreamwalker, Festergut, and Rotface. And when attempting Heroic end-boss, you can clear everything else except Arthas, and then swap to Normal mode with 2 attempts left if you fail to down. This beats the heck out of having to quit Heartbreaker to race to Yogg.
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11/19/09, 4:03 AM
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#27
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Banned
Blood Elf Paladin
Tanaris
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Someone on the official forums made an excellent point regarding limited attempts with regard to the creation of Shadowmourne. Each of the three quests for it involves a presumably DPS character taking hits meant for tanks - or at least it does for two of them, I'm not certain what the Putricide quest involves but I assume it's not done in the normal course of the fight. What happens if your potential Shadowmourner dies? Do you wipe it and lose your week's attempt? Or do you continue and postpone Shadowmourne another week? These seem like questions likely to cause serious internal drama.
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11/19/09, 4:17 AM
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#28
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King Hippo
Night Elf Warrior
Antonidas (EU)
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It's not as if the classes eligible for Shadowmourne (DK, warrior, Paladin) have no choice to become hard targets (either by gearing for the try appropriately or/and taking the right talents/cooldowns). It is a legendary quest after all. Beats the droppable legendaries (glaives, Thori'dal) any time.
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11/19/09, 4:56 AM
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#29
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Glass Joe
Orc Death Knight
Steamwheedle Cartel
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Originally Posted by Frozenn
My main problem with this system is the fact that it has so few attempts. 50 in togc felt pretty good, when we learned it we could spend 4-8 hours in there, depending on if we did ulduar or not. And I'd actually love to spend our entire raiding week in ICC while learning, instead of farming insanity/ulduar to fill the time once our 5-15 attempts are done for the week.
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I couldn't agree with you more to be honest I really did enjoy the attempt system in ToGC. Fifty attempts allowed a few raids to learn a fight, but starting off with five attempts will be brutal for a lot of the lower tier guilds. The last paragraph of the ICC gating system post, however, was interesting as it hints towards quite a few more attempts added on as the invasion proceeds (I seem to remember a screen shot of 3000 attempts left but that -had- to be placeholder).
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11/19/09, 5:38 AM
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#30
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Piston Honda
Orc Hunter
Destromath (EU)
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Originally Posted by Riz
I couldn't agree with you more to be honest I really did enjoy the attempt system in ToGC. Fifty attempts allowed a few raids to learn a fight, but starting off with five attempts will be brutal for a lot of the lower tier guilds. The last paragraph of the ICC gating system post, however, was interesting as it hints towards quite a few more attempts added on as the invasion proceeds (I seem to remember a screen shot of 3000 attempts left but that -had- to be placeholder).
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3000 attempts was indeed a placeholder counter that showed up on the PTR a few times during testing.
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