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Old 11/20/09, 6:06 PM   #61
Houjit
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T10 Upgrade system

Originally Posted by Redlimit View Post
As many have stated - what is stopping people from simply suspending their account or not logging on until Arthas and hardmodes are available? Surely they don't expect the three new 5-mans to satisfy people for weeks. Guilds focused on world firsts only care about what is available after Normal is cleared, and general PuGers will want more attempts on the hard bosses before devoting a signifigant chunk of time to it.
Originally Posted by Katria View Post
For those on the cutting edge, with all 258 gear and 270 cloaks even on your alt crew...yeah, you might as well take a 3 month vacation from WoW and try out DAO or Aion. Don't take that as rude...what I mean is, with the way Blizz is releasing content, you have 3 months before you can do the fights you want to do, and if you keep playing WoW you'll just be bored/frustrated. You can come back once Arthas is released, beat him in normal in a single night sometime in that first week, then come back on Tuesday to work on heroic mode and the fights you are looking for.

The T10 upgrade system (once we know the full details) will keep raiders doing normal modes so they can buy the first tier and save for the second (assuming it works similar to T9).

Last edited by Houjit : 11/20/09 at 6:12 PM. Reason: added another quote

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Old 11/20/09, 8:04 PM   #62
Nuke
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Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post


I think a large reason that Blizzard is moving in this direction is due to their aging core. While we don't have access to the data, Blizzard probably does. It seems likely that their 19-20 year olds that were playing 4 years ago are now turning 23-24, finishing college, starting families, etc. It's likely that the hardmode raiding core in WoW is dying, and so Blizzard is forced to try to compensate. They're keeping players around by reducing the required amount of raiding per week.
It's not going that way actually. Those "4 years"-ago players aren't the only ones looking forward competitive play. Some people go, some people get in.

Reason behind this, in my opinion, is more or less "quality" and "quantity" of players, who are doing this for the goal, and not just for "filling up time". While overall quality-level raised up drastically since the ages of vanilla and even TBC, amount of dedication from people went down. Mostly because of players themselves. I personally still miss pre 2.1 times when you actually did something to perform better, and not just went inside the instance, did the buffs and pulled the boss.

This will continue, and sadly, it can not be stopped.

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Old 11/20/09, 8:22 PM   #63
Gort
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Originally Posted by Houjit View Post
The T10 upgrade system (once we know the full details) will keep raiders doing normal modes so they can buy the first tier and save for the second (assuming it works similar to T9).
As I recall, the tier system will be badges for a first piece, then THAT PIECE plus a token to get the next one, not "more badges" plus a token. (Similar to the Sunwell upgrades/swaps, kind of.)

Edit: So yeah, I would imagine everyone's going to be in there doing normal modes 'cause they're not getting anything without badges, and they're not getting into the heroic until they do the normal anyway...

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Old 11/20/09, 9:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Gort View Post
As I recall, the tier system will be badges for a first piece, then THAT PIECE plus a token to get the next one, not "more badges" plus a token. (Similar to the Sunwell upgrades/swaps, kind of.)

Edit: So yeah, I would imagine everyone's going to be in there doing normal modes 'cause they're not getting anything without badges, and they're not getting into the heroic until they do the normal anyway...
One thing that bugs we is how long will heroic gear last. It's either there will be massive gear inflation in Cataclysm or we will raid t11 content in heroic t10.

42.

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Old 11/20/09, 10:14 PM   #65
zoombini
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Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
It's either there will be massive gear inflation in Cataclysm or we will raid t11 content in heroic t10.
GC did say we'd freak when we saw gear in Cataclysm, so probably the first one.

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Old 11/21/09, 5:26 AM   #66
Ukerric
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Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
One thing that bugs we is how long will heroic gear last. It's either there will be massive gear inflation in Cataclysm or we will raid t11 content in heroic t10.
The exact Ghostcrawler quote:
"Players are going to freak when they see the Cataclysm gear (because believe me, we did), but it's also exciting too".

You can guess that the original plan was along the following lines:

Nax: ilvl 200 / 213
Ulduar: ilvl 213/226
Mystery raid (ToC): ilvl 226/239
IC: ilvl 239/252

And that's it. We should have entered IC with an average ilvl 235 or so on stuff, and there would have been no need for a Sunwell radiance-type debuff. Instead, we got an additional tier worth at the lower end, where they started adding half a tier between 10man and the previous 25, and an additional tier at the higher end, in the form of "Heroic"-tagged 25 man loot. Basically, we got the equivalent of 2 unplanned raid tiers in this expansion.

And the next expansion is only 5 levels. Hmmmm....

Last edited by Ukerric : 11/21/09 at 5:36 AM.

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Old 11/21/09, 6:15 AM   #67
Proudmoore
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However, by the time that gear inflation became an obvious effect in Wrath, formulas had been set - you were getting X % dodge, Y% crit and z% hit per rating, and we were seveal months into an expansion already. While some things were changed (duch as the avoidance rartings, insufficient as it was), it would have been a massive task to redesign all the ratings, and rebalance all the content for those ratings. And most of the WoW population would have been complaining "FFS Blizz just put Sunwell Radiance back in, stop wasting time rebalancing, and give us more raids".

While it's not impossible that a similar unplanned inflation will happen during Cataclysm, one would assume that it's a lot easier for Blizzard to bump up the ratings gradient in content that isn;t even in Beta yet to compensate for what's going on in Live without the need to rebalace multiple tiers of gear and bosses that players are already using.

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Old 11/21/09, 6:34 AM   #68
Benita
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Originally Posted by Nuke View Post
Reason behind this, in my opinion, is more or less "quality" and "quantity" of players, who are doing this for the goal, and not just for "filling up time". While overall quality-level raised up drastically since the ages of vanilla and even TBC, amount of dedication from people went down. Mostly because of players themselves. I personally still miss pre 2.1 times when you actually did something to perform better, and not just went inside the instance, did the buffs and pulled the boss.

This will continue, and sadly, it can not be stopped.
The game changed, if your attitude didn't change and you enjoyed the pre 2.1 raiding that much then yeah, sadly the game has changed for the worse for you.

Most top 100 guilds have a rather light schedule by now compared to those times, basically because it just takes less time to get all on a farming status. They only go back to their old schedule on the weeks where theres actually something new to beat. By now i would say that most that need the 12h raids for months have left this game and went to play something more grinding or actually got some help.

Making the raiding game available for more players is a good thing for blizzard and for the game. The only downside is there for people who played this game to gain a feeling of being among the chosen few who have seen content that others did not. And by all means they still try to cater to more than one group of raiders with the different raid sizes and difficulties though granted that system often feels awkward. (Like hearing that stupid gnome fail to control a demon up to 8 times a week.)

Gating is just another method as they have described already to succesfully keep the raiding game in normal measures. You could argue that it's not their job and the people could do that themselves, but the reality is different. If BC has taught us anything it's that a full frontload with hard attunements is the worst possible method and leads to endless waiting time for something really new for the guilds that play that much.

If you'd ask me, i would say releasing a boss every 2 weeks would be the best to organize around and would keep the fun up for the most people, but that obviously has some testing and lore issues like this shoehorned "Ashen Verdict attacks but only up tooooo here." At least having a set week for a frontload gives people some time to keep their RL schedules light during those. Not everyone can go to their boss and ask for a few days off work in a random week like some guy suggested in an interview on WoR. Sadly that is what it takes to get high ranked kills in a pre 2.1 raiding setup (and to some degree even now).

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Old 11/21/09, 7:04 AM   #69
Mideci
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Originally Posted by Gort View Post
As I recall, the tier system will be badges for a first piece, then THAT PIECE plus a token to get the next one, not "more badges" plus a token. (Similar to the Sunwell upgrades/swaps, kind of.)

Edit: So yeah, I would imagine everyone's going to be in there doing normal modes 'cause they're not getting anything without badges, and they're not getting into the heroic until they do the normal anyway...
So to be specific, it's 60 badges for shoulders / gloves, 95 badges for chest / legs / helm (badges = Emblems of Frost). This gets you the 251 set. To upgrade to the 264 set requires a drop Vanq/Conq/Prot that we know for sure will be in the 25 man and almost certainly exist in some form in the 10 man heroic.

It then appears likely -- I say appears likely because I'm not aware it's on PTR though it might be -- that another drop from heroic 25 (again class-based probably) turns your 264 into 277.

This is obviously gigantically superior to the ToC system. There, raiders were discouraged from getting 232 badge/set loot since badges would then make 245 loot require several pieces of "unobtanium". Raiders will exhaust their badge needs over a pretty long window, however, assuming they also desire something offset. It's 400 badges for your 5 piece set and 50-60 for things like trinkets and cloaks. At 10 for the raid weekly (only doable once) and 2 for the heroic "random daily" and with gated bosses, you can see badges as scarce even if you are doing both 10 and 25 man content. EDIT: Apparently the "raid weekly" is down to awarding 5 badges, not 10 on current PTR buiilds (see below).

Last edited by Mideci : 11/21/09 at 2:50 PM.

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Old 11/21/09, 11:05 AM   #70
Calixtus
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Originally Posted by Benita View Post
Making the raiding game available for more players is a good thing for blizzard and for the game.
While what you say is true, how does gating content make it more accessible, and is the accessibility caused by "pushing content" really the kind accessibility that ultimately makes a good a game?

Reducing the logistical requirements to form a raid by lowering raid sizes and removing many out-of-raid preparations (weapon oils, resistance suits, attunements, increased money making from raiding itself to pay for repair bills.) were perfectly sensible actions to reduce the time neccesary to raid. The game is closer than it has ever been to a point where the vast majority of people playing can log on and raid if raiding is what they want to do. This is, as you said, both nice for gameplay as well as being a good business move.

But there's a pretty hefty difference between "if you only have three hours to spare on wednesday and you want to raid, you'll be able to spend those three hours raiding" and "if you have three hours to spare, you're still only raiding two." Maybe I'm just being dense, but havn't we sort of passed the apex of the trajectory here? For years the game has moved in a direction where you could log on, and raid if you wanted to rather than doing a bunch of preparations, to a point where we're suddenly going to spend considerable chunks of the time we're customers not raiding, because the raid's gated or attempt limited? How is effectively transfering back the control-over-our-own-time we've been given over the past few years, in order to increase Blizzard's control over the subscription-time each tier of content lasts, increasing accessibility?

I know some people would argue that it would give more time to revisit old content, but I don't buy it, primarly because of Naxxramas, but also from personal experiences with my guilds raiding schedule during ToC. Naxxramas demonstrated that without a tangiable in-game reward, content can easily sit there for more than two years and be so underused it can be reintroduced with minimal changes without making the sky fall down. The replayability of old PvE content, with the current level/gear advancement paradigm, is quite frankly, a persistent myth. If there's loot worth having - which is why the proto-drakes for Ulduar are still there, as well as why we're seeing "raiding dailies" - you can maybe convince people to show up. If there's not that bit of loot, Naxxramas is a burning torch of an example that shows that old, non-loot worthy raid content, cannot serve as a replacement for actual raiding. People just aren't that into it, and Blizzard knows it; Character progression - due to the design of the game, that's primarily but not exclusively gear - is a more powerful motivator to participate in content than anything else in this game. (At this point you could easily slip off on a tangent about Path of the Titans progression system in Cataclysm. Blizzard will be using that system to move a portion of the the character progression motivator to content that doesn't destroy old content quite the way gear advancement does. Which is awesome, but not really within the scope of what I'm getting at here).

And from a strict gameplay perspective, as has previously been pointed out, the attempts limit don't really stop the really competitive, due to alts, PTR. Since it'll be shifting upwards, it's hard to call it part of the encounter difficulty either.


Don't get me wrong, Blizzard is a business, with the goal of making money. When we pay by the month regardless of how much we play each month, it's obviously in Blizzards best interest to keep us playing as little as possible over longer periods of time - it makes them more money. Having people kit themselves in the BiS of this tier and then cancel til the next tier comes out cause they're now Prepared is bad business. If they can do something about that, they obviously should, and this is an excellent, low-cost, high-yield way of doing it.

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Old 11/21/09, 11:12 AM   #71
Enova
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Originally Posted by Calixtus View Post
While what you say is true, how does gating content make it more accessible, and is the accessibility caused by "pushing content" really the kind accessibility that ultimately makes a good a game?
I suppose the logic they've used here is that while top end guilds will clear the first wing in a week, the really slow progresng ones will clear one boss a week. So, set the gate for 4 weeks and everybody has an equal start at the next wing.

Originally Posted by XI- View Post
In summary, TBC raiding is easy. 9/10 encounters can be summarized with 1 phrase. Stay out of the fucking fire. If this is too difficult BWL was still there last I checked, so go have at it for some practice.
Originally Posted by Kaubel View Post
You people are idiots
Guilty as charged ^

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Old 11/21/09, 11:53 AM   #72
zoombini
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Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
At 10 for the raid weekly (only doable once) and 2 for the heroic "random daily" and with gated bosses, you can see badges as scarce even if you are doing both 10 and 25 man content.
Minor note - they changed the weekly raid quest so that it rewards 5 emblems of frost and 5 of triumph.

Lord Marrowgar Must Die! - Quest - World of Warcraft as an example.

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Old 11/21/09, 12:17 PM   #73
Gort
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Originally Posted by Kirion View Post
One thing that bugs we is how long will heroic gear last. It's either there will be massive gear inflation in Cataclysm or we will raid t11 content in heroic t10.
Considering the complete gearing redesign that's hitting with Cataclysm, I suspect we'll be trying to toss our current gear as fast as possible for the new numbers. Most of the pieces I wear to tank with currently possess stats that will no longer exist in game, and there is no WAY a retouch pass on current gear will end up as good as gear built from scratch under the new system, so to speak.

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Old 11/21/09, 12:23 PM   #74
Calixtus
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Originally Posted by Enova View Post
I suppose the logic they've used here is that while top end guilds will clear the first wing in a week, the really slow progresng ones will clear one boss a week. So, set the gate for 4 weeks and everybody has an equal start at the next wing.
That's technically untrue - faster kills means more kills, which is more loot, which means non-equal footing - and somewhat unrelated? My access to the content represented by <Insert Foe> is very thinly connected to, well, the next guy's access. I can't kill Ragnaros because I physically lack the time to perform the neccesary preparations, but I can string togheter two hours of playtime once a week. The raid content is inaccessible. Those two hours of play time is sufficient to allow me to participate in the glorious battle against the Elemental Lord. I can access the raid content. In what way would this be influenced by the timeline between my first kill and the first kill of Guild of Greater Awesomeness?

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Old 11/21/09, 1:54 PM   #75
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My largest concern is one of guild logistics - how to prepare a guild for the jump from normal mode raiding (which could presumably be done in 1-2 nights) to hard mode raiding (a 3-4 night raiding schedule). I've tried to avoid the issue with 3.2 (raiding Ulduar for achievements) but that's going to be abandoned over the holiday season. I was hoping the total time of gating would be around a month - annoying but doable. Seven weeks of gated content is going to be really tough to handle.

I'm worried because I remember the transitions from MH/BT to Sunwell and from Naxx to Ulduar. Once people get in the habit of not going to a raiding day, it's hard to bring them back.

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