PvP gear = PvE gear; access to PvP gear will be limited by time

Igni · 09/09/06, 9:24 AM

From my other thread, I get the impression that many people who read this board don't visit the General Forums often; the tag "WoW Forums Refugee" was my first clue. I wanted to provide information to folks that may not be news to some, but appears to be news to others. About three weeks ago now, I asked for additional information on the Arena system. As a ruthlessly efficient min-maxer, I asked that more details be provided so that holes in their system can be pointed out and the whole honor farm fiasco can be avoided for the second iteration.

In a sign that the moderators and developers appreciate clear, edited writing, I got a response. In fact, I got eight from two different blues. You can find the link here: http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-general/9552122.htm

I'm taking the time to post this as another topic because I wanted to clear up a misconception. While Arena PvP gear will be equal in quality to PvE gear, our access to it will be limited. Unlike the current system where you reach a required rank or a required reputation level and then buy the items with gold, there will be an Arena Point system where you buy items with points you've earned according to your ranking. In this way, Arena rewards will be restricted like 40-man raid instances.

In my other thread - in which I'm getting a beat-down like no other - many PvPers feel they can equip themselves soley with PvP gear and be competitive with those people who both PvP and PvE. What I maintain, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, is that our access to PvP gear will be limited and must be supplemented by PvE or you risk going into battle undergeared.

Originally Posted by Drysc

# At the end of each week, characters receive arena points based on their team's rating. A team must have fought a minimum number of battles for the week, which we have announced as currently set to 10 games. A player must have played in at least 30% of the team's battles that week in order to be eligible to receive arena points. Each eligible player will then receive a fraction of the teams total awarded points to spend on arena rewards.

# Players may spend their points on arena rewards, or save their points until they have enough to get the rewards they desire.

# There is a limit to the number of points a player can stockpile, which is currently planned to be as high as the most expensive item.

Igni · 09/09/06, 9:25 AM

This was my original post:

Originally Posted by Igniferroque

I suggest the developers share the exact details of the Arena system scoring system now or during the beta.

Experience has shown that players will a) reverse engineer any system you design and b) min-max that system once reverse engineered. So tell us how the system works now, we'll tell you how we'll min-max it, then you can decide if that's the behavior you'd like to encourage.

I was there for the birth of the honor cap on Bleeding Hollow. A few weeks after you began posting the honor scores and rankings, the system was reverse engineered and posted publically. We were in an AB group back in the day when you actually had to be in Arathi Highlands. A friend, an aeronautical engineer, was debating whether or not to push to GM that week or the week following. We disbanded the group for the hour while he "did the math." When we reformed, he had calculated that he couldn't make GM that week, told a peer to push for it instead and that he'd get it the next week. So it began.

I have no idea how the WoW designers feel about Raph Koster, but you'll find another example of min-maxing here:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2006/07/18/use-based-systems/

It shows how, by experimentation, people reverse-engineered UO's use-based skill system.

We have precious little information on how the Arena system will work. It will be like a chess rating system and there will be a minimum of 10 games required, as revealed by Jeff Kaplan during the Joystiq interview.

To demonstrate our affinity for min-maxing, I'll walk you through my ideas based on these two facts. My first thought is to get a group together and load them for bear: Flasks of Wisdom, Supreme Power, Titans, even Petrification for those times you need a three minute iceblock equivalent. Then, play the minimum number of games in this state.

Don't even have to play them all at once. Pick and choose our times when we're likely to encounter the least resistance. During prime time raiding hours. In the middle of the night. Mid-morning. Whenever you're likely to meet up with people who are PvPing honestly, for fun instead of simply to win.

Am I on target? Probably not, but I might be somewhere in the neighborhood. Regardless, you see how we'll think it through.

Share with us the details of the system and we'll tell you how we'll going to game it. And then you judge for yourselves if that's the game you want us to be playing.

As an idea to tune the system as I understand it to be - I didn't put too much thought into it because I'm just speculating here - give us an incentive to play more games. The current "grind or get demoted" disincentive lends itself to boring gameplay and you're absolutely right to move away from it.

To continue along the lines of your "honor point" currency, let us earn points to buy Arena loot. Instead of a winner take all system at the end of the three months, have a floor. If the system has a max rating of 10, everyone who has an 9 or more can 'buy' gear from the epic selection. Everyone who has a rating between 6 and 9 can 'buy' gear from the rare selection.

Maybe allow us to carry those epic or rare points over from season to season, thus not penalizing the people who fail to play 10 hours a day but still rewarding those who do.

These are conjectures based on an incomplete set of facts. So give us all the information of the Arena system before beta. By giving us the information now, we can give you feedback before its implemented and before it becomes so late you have patch in any changes.

Let me finish by saying, I'm all for the changes you're implementing in the Burning Crusade. Bravo. I'm very interested in getting this iteration of the PvP system right and many of us are more than willing and more than able to help.

Originally Posted by Drysc

We've kept a lot in mind while creating the arena system to help make it as centered on player skill as possible, and not time invested. We're looking to help create a place where players can track their achievements and improvements in a fun PvP environment. We're no strangers to the tactics and extent at which players will take a game to help ensure they reach their goal sooner or easier. It can however be minimized by simplifying a system so that the possible benefits available to a player are specific and tangible to everyone, and that the potential for exploitation is reduced as much as possible. With a complex system there will always be that something extra that can give you an edge over someone else, it's the size and availability of the edge that makes the difference though. We think we're making some great progress in creating place where players can come and test their PvP skill against others, have fun, and get some pretty cool rewards out of it too.

Just because you asked, here's some more information on the arena system. Hopefully this quells some of your concerns, and squashes a few assumptions. Please keep in mind that this information is subject to change, but these are our current plans for the PvP Arena system in The Burning Crusade expansion.

# When a player enters an arena battle, all buffs and conjured items are purged/deleted. This is done to ensure no outside buffs or items from members outside of your team are able to be used in an arena battle.

# No consumables other than bandages and conjured items can be used while in the arena. There will be a waiting area similar to the current battlegrounds where players on the team will be able to conjure items and cast buffs.

# Abilities/spells/items with cooldowns longer than 15 minutes cannot be used while in the arena.

# Each arena team will be given a rating, and will be matched up in the arena queue against teams of a similar rating (matching within that specific cross-realm battlegroup). As time progresses the matching system will broaden its search up to a limit if a closely rated team cannot be found.

# Ratings adjustments are made in the same way that ELO ratings adjustments are made. This system works by adjusting each arena team's rating from a specific match based on the rating of the team they are up against. If a team wins against a team of a higher rating, the increase of their arena rating would be much higher than if they had won against a team of a lower rating. This system will help promote players improving their skill and besting teams which may have previously held the top spots.

# At the end of each week, characters receive arena points based on their team's rating. A team must have fought a minimum number of battles for the week, which we have announced as currently set to 10 games. A player must have played in at least 30% of the team's battles that week in order to be eligible to receive arena points. Each eligible player will then receive a fraction of the teams total awarded points to spend on arena rewards.

# Players may spend their points on arena rewards, or save their points until they have enough to get the rewards they desire.

# There is a limit to the number of points a player can stockpile, which is currently planned to be as high as the most expensive item.

# At the end of a season, players on a team are given a title based on their team's relative position on the ladder which will last through the next arena season.

Originally Posted by Kalgan

At the end of each week, each character receives an equal number of the points. For characters that did not play in at least 30% of the battles, the points are lost.
So no, there shouldn't be any way to inflate the number of points any single player on the team receives.

Originally Posted by Kalgan

Quote: whoa, the points that you are capped to is = to the most expensive item? I hope that isn't true because what if you are like 1 point away and then win a match just for 1 point? Make it about 15% over so you can be able to buy the item but still be able to keep the points for the battle you just won to put you over the top.

It's more accurate to say the point limit is approximately equal to the most expensive item (slightly higher).

Spartan · 09/09/06, 10:18 AM

I don't think this will be a problem: won't you simply buy the desired item as soon as you have enough points? In the current honor system, you have to spend a large amount of time to achieve a certain rank and then all of the gear is available to you. With this new point system, I'm assuming it will still take a long time to attain a full set of level 70 epic pvp gear, but instead of having to earn 1000 points for the whole set then buying everything, youll simply earn whatever the cost is for a nifty sword, 150 points lets say, and then buy it.

enshula · 09/09/06, 10:20 AM

Personally i just read the guild wars system without premades.

I was expecting that you would be able to buy max effectiveness pvp items with the points you earn for every single slot so would not need to pve at all. Especially since repair costs will be low, consumable costs zero and buffing costs arnt very high.

Basically for your supposition of pve being needed either the gear choice is limited or the gear is inferior or its just very slow to get. Unless blizz makes arena gear usable outside arenas which i dont believe they should that wont be likely. I would also like to see gear totally excluded from the system and normalised ala light arena raiment in oblivion with points spent on something else. Unfortunately with wow there doesnt really seem to be anything left to use points for if gear is normalised.

Kody · 09/09/06, 10:29 AM

If arena gear can't be used outside of arenas, then it isn't very fair to allow raid gear to be used inside of them either. It's a two-way street when arguing for and against things like that.

Igni · 09/09/06, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Spartan

I don't think this will be a problem: won't you simply buy the desired item as soon as you have enough points? In the current honor system, you have to spend a large amount of time to achieve a certain rank and then all of the gear is available to you. With this new point system, I'm assuming it will still take a long time to attain a full set of level 70 epic pvp gear, but instead of having to earn 1000 points for the whole set then buying everything, youll simply earn whatever the cost is for a nifty sword, 150 points lets say, and then buy it.

I completely agree with you Spartan. But some people appear to be under the impression that you can fully outfit yourself in PvP gear and be competitive in PvP against those guilds who do both PvP and PvE. The point I'm trying to convey in my post is that access to PvP gear will be limited and while it will be a match in quality, people who both PvE and PvP will have advantages in quantity. This is unlike the current system where, upon reaching Exalted or Grand Marshall, you can buy everything you have the gold for in which case, yes, you can be viable against PvEers.

Originally Posted by enshula

I was expecting that you would be able to buy max effectiveness pvp items with the points you earn for every single slot so would not need to pve at all.

This is why I'm posting this thread, to correct that misconception. We don't know what the point value awards are going to be but since they'll be finite, there'll be limits to what we can get through Arena PvP. We'll have to pick and choose. Since it's not viable to gear up in one week, supplementing our PvP efforts through PvE only makes sense to me. Similiarly, since the time investment is so low, I don't see why guilds wouldn't set aside a night for PvP, do their ten games, and let members supplement the guild's PvE efforts with PvP gear.

spronk · 09/09/06, 10:57 AM

one of the articles written a month or two ago noted that the BG rewards will be not as good as PVE items. The arena items will be, but you will not be able to get an item for every slot from arena and will still need to PVE. They however didn't really say what level of PVE the arena items will be equal to - I assume 25 man level, but since the arena cap is 10v10 will it be 10 man level?

I also remember them saying that new rewards will be introduced to arena every so often, coinciding with new seasons.

OzX · 09/09/06, 11:12 AM

I'm not entirely excited about these arenas. From what I understand about Elo there are a number of problems that I imagine would be exacerbated in an anonymous MMO where any given player can maintain multiple identities.

Regardless of what rating system Blizzard uses I think the best thing they can do to curb abuse is to keep ratings private. If the most an abuser of the system has to look forward to is having his maxxed out (to the relatively low, single item-ish cap mentioned) pvp points displayed on some third-party website it would go a long way toward keeping the system healthy.

◊ Eej · 09/09/06, 1:35 PM

Why wouldn't you be able to use Arena gear outside Arenas? It's just another form of gear progression that people will have access to. Of course, it all depends on how much loot you can equip yourself with, but apparently the gear will be equivelant to the highest level of PvE at the time, and will be updated every 3 months to match PvE progression, roughly. That being said, I'm pretty sure those who will be geared out best for Arenas would be those who PvP and PvE a lot, because PvE raid instances will probably have things like trinkets and rings that the Arena system won't have.

Of course, this is all speculation.

BByte · 09/09/06, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by OzX

I'm not entirely excited about these arenas. From what I understand about Elo there are a number of problems that I imagine would be exacerbated in an anonymous MMO where any given player can maintain multiple identities.

Regardless of what rating system Blizzard uses I think the best thing they can do to curb abuse is to keep ratings private. If the most an abuser of the system has to look forward to is having his maxxed out (to the relatively low, single item-ish cap mentioned) pvp points displayed on some third-party website it would go a long way toward keeping the system healthy.

If I've understood correctly there's no way to pick your fights. You simply choose to enter an arena and someone who wants to enter at approximately the same time (or is queued) is pitted against you. And your opponent won't necessarily be the one that's closest to you in rating, but someone that's close enough. That curbs away most of the potential exploits.

In addition ELO is "zero-sum", so two teams can't effectively fight fixed fights.

Your team's ladder rating and the arena item points your character has are separate as well. Rating determines your place in the ladder and your matchups, item points are per character and just act as currency.

probiscus · 09/09/06, 2:03 PM

Without fully understanding the ins and outs of an "ELO style" points system, does this mean that if you're going for the top dog item, you'd need to save for the entire season? Does this mean that only the number 1 team/guy/whatever per each ladder will be the only one w/ access to said top item? If that's the case, that item damn well better be superior to everything else in the game, especially if you're competing against battlegroups, not just your server.

As I think about that, I really hope that wouldn't be the case for any number of reasons. However I'll wait to see how long Blizz intends to go between ladder resets before I get into my reasons why I don't like that "one top dog" idea.

◊ Eej · 09/09/06, 2:10 PM

Your team receives a rating and everyone on the team gets the same amount of points from that rating. Rating is determined by the teams you have fought against for that week. For example, if two teams of roughly equal rating face off, the winner goes up in rating, the loser goes down in rating. If there is a large difference in the rating between two teams, it works out like this: if the lower team defeats the higher team, the lower team gains a massive boost in rating and the higher team takes a huge hit in rating. What I'm curious is what happens when higher rated teams destroy lower rated teams. I have a feeling they'll make it similar to the Warcraft 3 Ladder (the Arena system doesn't have to perfectly zero sum because it's reset after 3 months anyways), where low leveled teams would still gain rating just for playing against higher leveled teams.

Dakous · 09/09/06, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Igni

I'm taking the time to post this as another topic because I wanted to clear up a misconception. While Arena PvP gear will be equal in quality to PvE gear, our access to it will be limited. Unlike the current system where you reach a required rank

How many HWLs are there at one time? True/false there's a(n effective) limit?

Here's exactly what I see in the system - let's pretend that honor token prices are based on the current ranking system (lots of cheap, fill in the blanks low cost blue set pieces, more expensive purples, and then most expensive are the weapons).

You believe your weakest slot is a weapon, so in the current system, you rank up for 3 months, getting a tier 2/2.5-ish weapon (or weapons). In the current system, you get to buy everything along the way, and then you're done.

In the coming system, you - who, for the sake of argument, we'll call a totally sweet PVPer - save for two weeks to get your weapon and nothing else, whereas Johnny Come Casually gets the same weapon five or six weeks along (saving up more from his slower honor token gains since he's not a Totally Sweet PVPer).

You've gotten the pinnacle prize of the PVP system, and you still have a host of things to do (save up for your biggest armor upgrade, for example) and you can take a break without penalty.

And they can easily phase in higher tier rewards, reducing prizes across the board of existing loot and putting the new tier stuff in at the old top prices.

But as for the intake of PVP gear being limited... that's the current system. Why'd you think the new one was going to be different? At least it has a hope of not being terrible - presumably, you stumbled over a few pieces of gear leveling, so maybe you want to skip the boots/leggings at rank 7. Well, now, there's no rank 7, so go on and take what you like, as you like it.

# There is a limit to the number of points a player can stockpile, which is currently planned to be as high as the most expensive item.

Why do you need significantly more points than the purchase price of the highest item? Presumably you were saving to purchase it, or you were just accumulating points - the former goal has no need for significantly higher ceiling, the latter is not a goal that needs designing to. Especially considering this may be an anti-cross-season exploit measure (hey guys I saved up 50043545 honor tokens and they've introduced tier 6 PVP gear !)

Finally - how is that different from PVE? With lockout timers coming to 10 man instances, this means there's a finite income of quality loot accessable per week - which is a really weird coincidence with about the timing of honor tokens income.

• Vykromond · 09/09/06, 2:54 PM

IRT #13

Just quickly:

Finally - how is that different from PVE? With lockout timers coming to 10 man instances, this means there's a finite income of quality loot accessable per week - which is a really weird coincidence with about the timing of honor tokens income.

From the OP:

In this way, Arena rewards will be restricted like 40-man raid instances.

So he wasn't alleging that it was different from PVE. Here's what he said:

many PvPers feel they can equip themselves soley [sic] with PvP gear and be competitive with those people who both PvP and PvE.

(emphasis mine)

EDIT: Minor clarity edit.

genjuro · 09/09/06, 4:07 PM

It's a stretch to assume that the arena PVP rewards won't be as complete as what you can get from PVE. For all we know, arena PVP rewards exist for every slot and are comparable to the highest-end PVE drops, so that a dedicated PVP'er will be able to completely outfit himself in quality gear exclusively from PVP. Unless you have some inside information from the alpha or whatever which you cannot post, there's no reason to rule out this possibility and simply assume that you'll have to raid to fully deck out your character.

I think the whole point of the expansion is to get away from the "raid or die" mentality that the endgame has become over the past two years by giving players comparable rewards from other activities. My guess and hope is that PVP will be seen as being just as prestigious as end-game raiding instead of something you do on your off-nights. The only way to ensure this happens is to make PVP rewards as good and as comprehensive as raid drops. So while none of us know what the arena rewards will be, I think it's much more likely that there will in fact be quality pieces for every slot than what you're suggesting. Blizzard has been stated repeatedly their intention to make the arena system a very skill based competition. If the arena rewards are inadequate, then it means pure PVP players will not be competitive with players who raid due to the gear difference. This would lower the emphasis on skill and put it on gear, and would cheapen the system as a whole (since you now have to raid in order to successfully PVP, what's the point of PVP from a reward perspective?). That would defeat the purpose, so from that perspective the arena rewards *have* to be on the same level as top-end PVE rewards.

crimsonsentinel · 09/09/06, 4:27 PM

Hmm, I really don't see how that thread proves your point. I don't see anything in the blue's responses that would imply that there will be gear slots that you will not be able to get in PVP only. It's only logical that through the arena system, all 14 armor slots and 3 weapon slots will have some gear for purchase. And according to blizzard, it will be updated to ensure that that gear is equivalent or at least similar in quality to that of the best PVE gear.

The way I see the arena system is like this:

You have every single item available to purchase without any prerequisites. The only catch is that you have to pay "tokens" instead of gold for it. You earn those tokens by ranking every week in the arena system, with higher ranks getting more.

So in the end, I really don't see how someone who only PVP's will be lesser geared. Sure, if they dont win as many, it may take longer to get those tokens, but eventually they'll get it. Plus, with PVP, they're more or less guaranteed loot as they dont have to deal with random loot tables or anything of that sort.

Now of course, if you're talking about how fast someone can get geared up, certainly someone who both PVP's and PVE's will gear up relatively faster... although even that is not assured, given raid lockouts and random loot. Hell, someone who PVE's solely might likely gear up more slowly than someone who PVP's slowly, if they have bad luck (this may be especially true in terms of weapons). But the end result will be the same.

Vhal · 09/09/06, 5:23 PM

This is just raid lockout timers for PvP gear tacked on to a system which allows better progression with PvP gear. An optimally geared player will probably have a lot of PvE drops and then fill in the weak spots with PvP gear due to a better ability to choose which items are acquired with the time spent.

levk · 09/09/06, 5:30 PM

This is my understanding for their new system - they have a weekly ELO rating for a team and based on that rating you get a certain amount of points that you actually get to spend. ELO system would pit you in actual competition against the other faction; you would get good rating if you beat good teams and little if you beat bad teams. In ELO you actually loose rating if you loose a game, so you can't get good rating artificially - the good teams won't let you win for nothing since that loss will cost them. As opposed to now, the honor cap is how you get that rating artificially.

• frmorrison · 09/09/06, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel

Sure, if they dont win as many, it may take longer to get those tokens, but eventually they'll get it.

This is an important point. Due to that fact that as long as you do 10 games a week, you get some amount of tokens, even a causal player should have enough tokens to get something.

Since it will take some time to get enough tokens to get what you want, it is best to do some PvE on the side while you rank so you can be competitive on the side (I think this is the point).

But I disagree that PvP gear is limited, it just takes time.

◊ Oggie · 09/09/06, 7:43 PM

I understand your point, and I think it's a good one.

I will point out a few things that I haven't seen anyone really draw attention to though.

We have no idea on the scaling for points in terms of points/week and points/item. This issue's severity is drasticly reduced if the top of the line item x takes 6 weeks to get, and amplified if it takes 6 months. I fully expect the amount of time it takes to be fluxuated by quite a lot.

In addition, you will be able to do BGs and stock up on 'okay' gear, not suffering the same level of restriction, and be able to use a pick and choose system, untill you get the high end arena stuff. While this gear is (admittedly) inferior to top end raid gear, I'd expect it will be enough to get your foot in the door, so to speak.

And lastly, I think it's possibly telling (though I could EASILY be reading to much into this) that they've traditionally used the singular for top item. In other words,t ehre are only a few of the hideously expensive top of the line work for 3 months+ to get items that compare favorably to the raid level epics, not horribly unlike rank 14 weapons atm, and the majority of the items are much more accessable. Not trivial, mind you, but more within reason- say 5 months for that uber weapon/trinket/neck that's a 25 man raid endboss drop, while 1 month/each for a drop ~= bosses leading up to him.

Editing this in:

It's actually a Good Thing (tm) that they're limiting access like this, because then it -can- be comperable to raid gear. It's no fair for a pvp guild to switch around to pve and smash through the entire raid that thhat pve guild's been working on- because they're so pimped out in pvp gear that was a lot easier to get. I know it's a wierd way to look at it, but it's just the reverse of the current (very real) pvers smashing pvp issue.

In fact, limiting like this will (hopefully) make a pvp guild and a pve guild step into uber gear at roughly the same time, assuming 'perfect' balance. This means the new uber weapons and phenominal gear will hit the world at the same time, which I assume they're going for. The issue of course is you can get 1-2 drops a week in a 25 man raid, while the pvper is limited to 1 drop/x weeks. It CAN be accounted for, but I doubt it'll be easy and I bet it'll require adjusting.

hubar · 09/09/06, 9:30 PM

I don't know about you guys, but the majority of my guildies who rolled on a pvp server raid pve to get uber gears so that they can own in pvp too.

And honestly, I don't think pvp requires too much skills, it is more about luck and gear than everything else.

Vhal · 09/09/06, 9:58 PM

Originally Posted by hubar

And honestly, I don't think pvp requires too much skills, it is more about luck and gear than everything else.

Well, in the curren system, luck means, effectively, "when queuing for BGs, you get organized groups as little as possible".

The whole point of doing a rating system is that actually being good at PvP will give you an advantage.

*Refrains from comment on the lack of skills bit*

Mathia · 09/09/06, 10:06 PM

I find that a rather ignorant statement, for me gear only makes executing a strategy easier. Of course, two equally skilled teams with a huge difference in gear will have an outcome that is easy to divine but if the undergeared team has some phenomenal skill and teamwork and the other team lacks it, the undergeared team can win.

For example, in the first week of Cross Server BGs I brought a guild team, and mind you we are only up to Emps. We didn't end up losing ANY games in the week in which we PvPed pretty hardcorely. One of the various guild teams we came across in the myriad of pugs was a guild very far in Naxx on Elune...and we five capped them.

My point is that gear can't play the game for you, even though it makes doing a job much easier.

Romp · 09/09/06, 10:16 PM

I really hope there is a large variety of gear available through the arena. Current pvp gear, especially for hybrids, is a bit lacking for a lot of specs. It would suck as an enhancement shaman to be in the number 1 arena team but the only mail gear available is all +damage gear.

Also I wonder if we will see nice rings amulets and trinkets and not just armour and weapons.

hubar · 09/09/06, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vhal

Originally Posted by hubar

And honestly, I don't think pvp requires too much skills, it is more about luck and gear than everything else.

Well, in the curren system, luck means, effectively, "when queuing for BGs, you get organized groups as little as possible".

The whole point of doing a rating system is that actually being good at PvP will give you an advantage.

*Refrains from comment on the lack of skills bit*

No I mean unlike in FPS or RTS where you can be fully responsible for every outcome of the game, in WOW pvp, a luck parries or dodges of execute can decide the outcome for entire battle.