Calantus

I am not a bluecardplace pro and I haven't kept tabs on the threads in question, but everything I'm going to say in this post is from a legitimate blue post I've read, not hearsay or guessing (well, there will be some guessing, but I'll point that out). You guys don't have to believe me of course but there it is. :P

This issue was brought up in one of the big arena discussion threads where someone mentioned how people would game the rankings by deliberately losing to high teams and a blue replied that essentially WC3s system was more a hybrid system with ELO elements than a fullblown ELO system and that the arena ELO would be more pure. He didn't explicitly say "no, it wont work like that" but it's my guess that's what he meant. I also recall reading a blue post that said it would be very close to the ELO systems used in chess championships, so if you wanted to know more then that would be a good place to look.


On the subject of needing to PVE for gear it was specifically stated by a blue that while arena gear would be comparable to raiding gear you would definately benefit by getting gear from both sources. Now there wasn't any weight to that statement so it's anybody's guess as to how far it goes. It could be that PVE gear just makes gearing up faster because you have 2 limited sources instead of 1, or it could mean that arena gear only covers certain slots. Personally I'm thinking it's likely that there is simply going to be a few choice PVE items you'd want that are better than the arena slots. Things like ZHC or lifegiving gem, or just even better choice for slots so if you want a little less X stat and a little more Y stat there's one of those avalable in PVE.

As for the limited points I figured it was just so you can't save up points indefinately after you've got everything you want and just buy up a new set of rewards as soon as they come out. It's essentially ensuring they get to control the timesink, nothing new here. :P

 

Pendragon

Hmm maybe I'm missing something in this system, but I see no way to PVP only equip your way to the top. Assuming the regular BG's and honor system are going to a linear point buy, then fine everybody can easily gear up all that stuff (blue sets?) that are admittedly not close to top raid stuff.

However, by winning the Arena's or getting near top ratings at the end of each week it is possible to get PVP gear equal to top tier raid stuff. But which teams are going to be winning the Arena's? Seems like obviously the raiders who already have gear equal to the top stuff that they can win in the Arena. Maybe there are some sideway upgrades that they want to pick and choose over, but the PVP only teams coming in to play them seem like they would have no chance since they are not on equal footing until they can get that top Arena stuff, which they wont get for a long long time because the best stuff they have coming in is lukewarm items from the point buy honor system. Kind of a catch 22.

 

Furbo

With skill matching this won't be a problem. The teams that win often will be filtered to the top and into competition with teams that are equally geared and of appropriate skill, even without any form of gear matching.

 

Pendragon

Skill matching doesnt solve this because eventually skill runs into equal skill but with better gear. Then you lose and get less of a rating than the raiders. Thus, the raiders buy the best arena gear up sooner to mix and match with their already uber raiding stuff and its a cycle where a pure pvp team can never get on top. Or by the time they do buy out all their slots there is no competition left except for the casuals plugging along for their 2nd generation TUFs. What I'm saying is the real pvp is not going to go on till 70 where the best rewards are. But on the trek to 70, raiders are going to far more completely raid the 25 and 10 man dungeons for the best stuff available. Our imaginary pvp team is merely going to hit the 5 man's and maybe dabble in the 10s depending on their difficulty, and time needed. Not to mention the Tier 3 people already will have a leg up on all this stuff as the xpack kicks off. I dont see where the system of skill matching resolves my question at all.

 

Furbo

So collect PvP gear and become competetive with them?

Honestly, Blizzard representatives have stated time and again that their intention is to make the two forms of gear equivalent and to upgrade arena gear to match raid gear.

Yes, raiders will have more versatility but how fair is it for them to not have that versatility if they participate in more content than someone who just plays the arena?

Likewise, what is stopping an arena player from running instances (and raiding) to pick up gear until they can purchase all of their arena gear and become really competetive?

If someone uses a strategy that is fully legal within a game's rules to acquire an advantage, you have no grounds to complain when they best you while staying completely within the rules of the game. Participating in raiding and the arenas and acquiring gear from both to piecemail is a perfectly legal strategy within the game system.

If given equivalent gear, you can't best someone who simply has more options to build a gear set (but doesn't have truly superior gear), they are either more skilled than you or able to build such a specialized and min/maxed set of gear that they gain a legitimate gear advantage. Whichever of those is true, they still deserve to win.

Practical example: I just started playing this character again after a long time of inactivity. I have a handful of epics but mostly instance blues (and one green). If I face someone in GM or tier2+ gear, I get my face rolled up like a katamari without being able to put up anything resembling a fight. Is that fun? Not really. Is it fair? Yes, because I haven't put in the time or effort to collect the gear like my opponents have.

Another practical example: A friend of mine is good at fighting games. He spends many hours playing them and practicing to get better at them. I hardly ever touch fighting games, his understanding of fighting game mechancs and strategies is so much more matured and developed than mine that I have no chance to win against him. Fun to play him? Not really. Fair when I'm beaten? Yes, because he put in much more time and effort to understand the games than I have, so he developed a natural advantage.

If you refuse to try and gain any advantage you can (legally, within the confines of the game rules), even when you are beaten--especially when you are beaten--you don't deserve to win.

 

Pendragon

Its simply not good enough if your a pvp player with top skills in what you do, and can beat anyone else who comes your way, except for those rare days where the uber raiders decide to come have some fun in pvp and blow off steam by rolling everyone else, even the people who spend their entire game time trying to be the best in that setting. Why should raiders merely by virtue of beating the current 'end dragon' somehow have the right to dominate PVP when one thing has nothing to do with the other?

Your argument makes sense but not on a practical level. On a practical level it kills any incentive for the pvp base (which is indeed quite large and prefers not to raid seriously). The investment needed between running the arena and making a top notch raiding guild is not the same. Raiders can easily just for kicks and giggles dabble in pvp and own up everything. A pvp guild who spends all their time creating group strategy and in arena, cannot nearly so easily say lets go raid Naxx when they have probably only cleared through MC when their bored.

I think the answer which Blizzard was once on the right track for was to make raiding gear good for, you know, raiding? Put resists on top of stats dont make seperate resist sets, which is dumb anyway and marginalizes all the things you have just won in the previous dungeon and now is useless. Put mana regen, put health regen, put aggro generation for tanks, aggro reduction for dps, whatever. When I first began raiding and acquired my Tier 1 I was suprised that for PVP my blue armor set pieces were just as good and in many cases superior to my Felheart. I quickly learned that the Tier 1 was much better for raiding. But now that balance is entirely shot as their are raiding sets largely the best for both sides of the game.

 

Kasi

I don't agree with all of Pendragon's points (like seperating pve from pvp gear. PVP gear for some classes is very good pve gear. There isn't any problem in it going vice versa.) But I do agree that if Arena is set up like it has been hinted where it is skill that matters and not necessarilly a time sink, than raiders are going to dominate that as well. Sure there will be some people who are pvp only in there, but if you can dominate the Arena on 10-20 matches a week than the raider with their uber gear will have no problem doing that.

 

K-Muflage

The raiders that will PVP "just for kicks" wont be ranking that high in the arena, meaning that they will not go against the "high skilled" PVPers very often.

 

Crossbones

As soon as people hit 70, they aren't suddenly going to be wearing Illidan gear. They might be wearing Nax gear which may or may not be all that much better than 60-70 socketed instance gear (and if they don't retroactively change the stamina budgeting, 70 blues could easily be better for PvP). So if people are starting their arena teams soon after TBC is out, they're not going to be hitting walls of PvE players decked out way better than them. Especially when the PvPer can work specifically for what item he needs and the PvE'er is hindered by droprates and trying to split loot across 25+ people, etc.

Now, if you start a few months down the line, then yeah you're going to have to work your gear up before being able to compete with the highest ratings -- but it's not just because you're fighting people with PvE gear, there will also be teams who geared up through PvP who are also going to outgear you. It's the nature of MMO's that starting later always puts you at a disadvantage, getting significantly larger as more time passes.

 

Furbo

Well, again, if gear is equivalent there will be such little difference between raiders and pvpers that the, "raiders will dominate arenas," argument is moot.

This is, of course, unless Blizzard doesn't provide equivalent gear through the arenas, but I think this thread is under the assumption that they will stay true to their words and provide equivalent gear at the start and continue to update pvp rewards as pve rewards improve.

 

• Lanky

Good to see you back in action Igni.
This is the sticking point for most interested parties, and the implied point of the thread. As it currently sits, we are unsure (but doubtful) of how equalized PvP and PvE gear progression will be, given the same amount of time / skill invested. I think what Igniferroque is getting at here is the earlier Blizzard tells us this data, the faster we can tell them how to modify it to suit their desires for game balance. Hence, the blues responses to date are decent, but lacking some specificity that would be appreciated.

"Will PvP Arena and PvE Instance gear scale and "drop" at the same general rates for time invested?"
Seems like the magic initial question.

 

Igni

Lanky, glad to see you back on Bleeding Hollow, assuming you did leave at some point.

I changed the title up a bit. I don't mean to assert that we can only get so much PvP equipment up to a limit. I wanted to say that the rate at which we can get PvP gear will be akin to the rate you could get PvE gear in a raid. Since that is the case, we can improve the level to which we're equipped by doing both PvE and PvP.

Said another way, the people who do both PvP and PvE will have better gear than those who do one or the other.

Ignie Ferroque translates from latin to "with fire & with sword." It is a stock phrase used to describe the results of a destructive raid into an enemy's territory, whose sole purpose is to generate fear, terror, and destruction.

 

◊ Eej

Yes, that's sort of the way it's been for a while. That is, for some classes at least, a mixture of PvP gear and PvE gear tends to be the best loadout for PvP.

 

• Lanky

I actually left BH to play my 60 Enhancement shaman on Dalvengyr with RL friends, thus making me a traitor to all that is good and just.
Non sequiters aside, how many people besides me would like to see an Arena gear system where you did not need to PvE much / if at all, in order to get an excellent total gear setup? And I am talking with the same time and skill invested in PvP versus PvE.

To me, that is fixing PvP itemization. It is extremely hard to do, since you are dealing with two radically differing methods of gameplay, and must balance the rewards of each versus the other, but hopefully that is what Blizzard shoots for.

 

enshula

If gear was exclusionary balance would be simple.

No pvp gear in pve instances, no pve gear in pvp instances for example.

 

Darkmantle

Going naked and weaponless into your first wsg ever because you can't use thrash blade makes perfect sense.

Resistances on pve gear was almost pointless for raiding as well as pvp. The tier 1 sets ended up with 34 FR and 24 SR the tier 2 sets ended up with 40 FR 10 of the minor ones and 30 SR. Now these stats made a minimal difference on a handful of fights after proper resist gear came in. Before that they still weren't very good because if you 'needed' resists then you needed a lot more than they provided and the rest of the time you didn't need them they just decreased your damage/healing output on pve fights that needed it. Not to mention that resist fights are lame and just make you more likely to get full 18 slot bags in every slot.

 

Igni

Well, now you have insights into the Shaman class that no one else on the Alliance has. Besides, these are all fictional rivalries anyway, a story to dehumanize the other side.

I LOVE such a system as you mention. And, what you're talking about, might be quite possible in time. But the two game types aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, with the dramatically lowered time requirements - every single day all week now versus 10 games in a week in the expansion* - the PvP gear will be far more available to PvE raiders.

So what you're saying might entirely be the case; you might be able to gear up entirely with PvP. However, you'll be outgeared faster by PvE'ers who also PvP. The reason why is that past the 10 game minimum, you can convert time into points with any reliability. The marginal benefit of that 11th game is so low, other options become more appealing.

I asserted at some point that PvE guilds would be silly not to take a night and send their members into the Arena for the loot available there. Essentially, they should treat it as another instance. Assuming a comparable return on investment in time, do you think that is a valid statement?

*It was stated in one of the articles that a character will be able to participate in a team in each bracket: 2x2, 3x3, 5x5. So it is possible you'll be able to get points from the standing of each team you're on. Assuming each bracket's award points go into the same pool, you may be able to treble the amount of points you can get. This is speculation, but is plausible if not likely.

Ignie Ferroque translates from latin to "with fire & with sword." It is a stock phrase used to describe the results of a destructive raid into an enemy's territory, whose sole purpose is to generate fear, terror, and destruction.

 

Fenrus

Warning: This is a slight digression, but I do get back to the point of the argument eventually.

I'm always a little confused about people who seem to be advocates of a PvP system that is purely "skill based". There's always a group of people who ultimately want to either remove gear from the equation or limit it as a factor by having a system that matches up groups based on their relative gear level, but I don't understand why. What game do these people think they've been playing for the past nearly 2 years now? This is not CS or UT, it's an MMO with some PvP elements in it. Gear is (and always will be) a factor in determining somebodies success in this game in both PvP and PvE. That is the nature of this game, and it's a large part of the motivation for people to participate in the content of this game, whether it's PvP or PvE.

Like it or not, a big part of the reason many players spend large amounts of time and gold wiping on bosses is so that they can have a chance at gear that helps them in PvP. And I've seen plenty of PvP gear being used in raid instances as well.

But there's a group of people who dislike PvE, they find it boring and/or frustrating and either refuse to participate in it at all or only do so because they feel they have to to get gear for PvP. I can understand and somewhat relate to their feelings, but I also think they can be a unreasonable and/or unrealistic about their demands for absolute gear equality, or put another way gear aquisition equality.

I think there's an unspoken presumption that these players have that since they only PvP, they are better at PvP than people who participate in both PvP and PvE, and as such should be rewarded more for it. It annoys them when they see people in BGs with full raid gear because they're convinced that these players are bad at PvP (granted, in some cases they're right) and don't deserve to have an advantage over them.

What is your idea for an ideal PvP reward system for World of Warcraft? Do you want a PvP system that negates gear from the equation or limits it's use in PvP in some way? Well, right there you've killed a large motivation for people to participate in the system at all, you might as well go play Counterstrike. But what I think many people in this thread are looking for is a system that will reward those people who refuse to raid in some way that either favors the pure PvPers or penalizes the PvEers. I can't imagine how you could have such a system though. People who participate both PvP and PvE will always have an advantage unless you limit either the use of the gear aquired through PvE or penalize PvE players somehow, and if you do that, you've just killed a large part of the motivation for people who raid to raid and Blizzard would never do that. That is the nature of this game, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

Mithin

I couldn't agree with Fenrus more.

I think there is a great misconception in the nature of PvE. Raiders raid for multiple reasons, its true. I'm not a huge PvPer, in that, I'll have fun for a few games a day maybe but any more than that just gets too repetitive and essentially not fun. I'm not trying to be inflammatory when I say that I find many PvPers to be ignorant but it's quite disheartening to see one's efforts being looked down upon.

Its true that those in the expansion that PvE and PvP will have an advantage (gear-wise) over those that PvP only. Does that mean that those like myself that, for the most part, PvE only should get compensated as well? Of course not. Now, laughing as I type this, I will feel a little butt-hurt to see that PvP gear is on par with end-game raid gear but in all honesty, its completely fair. The same way I'd expect some respect as a raider, I need to honour it to PvPers.

As for the time factor, do you guys really think that PvE gear is automatic ? Not only is PvE gear more difficult to obtain (and no, I don't mean skill-wise) but it takes more time to obtain as well. Going into the expansion, raiders have to compete with there fellow raid members, not to mention drop rates, for their desired gear whereas PvPers need to focus on obtaining the necessary amount of points to purchase their item.

In conclusion, I feel that so long as the end game PvP rewards and PvE rewards are on par, both types of players will be equal to each other. The arena PvP system and reward system is excellent, in that, it will not be an endless grind. And lastly, since items will always be upgraded to be on par with raid gear, there will always be reason to PvP. I feel this will truly be the solution to having two avenues in with to experience WoW, both being competitive against one another.

http://ctprofiles.net/37634

 

hubar

This is funny that many people tend to think raiders are less pvp-skilled than "hardcore pvpers".

This isn't a FPS or RTS game, guys.

Pvp so far in WOW has been easy, requires much less energy and concentration than the pve aspect of the game.

 

◊ Praetorian

I'm hardly a hardcore PvPer but that just isn't true. It's just that for organized and well-geared groups, most BG matches end up being laughable. But going up against a really organized and experienced team that matches your level of gear is a different matter entirely. I've been in 45-minute WSGs against groups like that, where it was easily as tense and called for as much execution as yet another C'Thun or Thaddius kill or whatever.

 

hubar

Ok, I will give you that guild team vs guild team can be a tough battle.

But raiders who are trained to be able to concentrate for a long period of time and react as fast as the lag permits are not sloppy pvpers, provided they are familiar with the pvp mechanics.

 

◊ Praetorian

I disagree with this -- plenty of people who are accomplished raiders are god-awful at PvP. If anything, I'd say the converse is more true. I have yet to see a truly impressively skilled PvPer (especially healers) who does not also perform at the highest levels on raids.

 

probiscus

Speaking as someone who's raided/pvp'd with a rogue and a warlock... generally speaking to play either of those classes at a high level in PvP (which I don't currently do, but am working on it) I'd say that PvP is actually more difficult. There are a few extra levels of micro-management involved in PvP that simply don't exist in the PvE content I've seen. The kind of stuff where if you're a nuking caster, to start your cast on one target and immediately switch so the opposing teams healer can't just assist you to figure out who they're going to heal. Nothing ground breaking there, but a staggering majority of players just don't do that stuff.

Then there's also the WSG game where you have to look at a teams composition and try to figure out what type of D & O you're going to play to beat them. If you're a raid guild rolling PUGs, this stuff doesn't matter, the flip side is you could be running around in blues fighting a raid team and if your strats/players are better, you're going to win. There aren't many real "gear checks" in PvP. Unless you're getting white-critted for 2K by a DEOI MS warrior >__<

 

impossible!

As Prae said, it really is a matter of what you're going up against. If you're steamrolling 15 solos in AB, you're taking part in the PvP equivalent of soloing Deadmines thanks to gear disparity. Go up against a rival guild's group, and chances are you're in for a really awesome match.

I remember spending 45 minutes in WSG and AB going up against Transcendence's and Exodia's nightly groups while I was in NA. Those matches were, quite honestly, the best PvP I have experienced to date. Then the retards went and ruined it by agreeing to trade off 5 or 3 cap matches because actually playing was cutting too deep into their honor intake. :V:

Honesly, assuming the arena and its accompanying matching system are well executed, I think a lot of people, especially those who are used to blowing out PUGs all day, will be reminding of just how dynamic and challenging PvP can be.

edit: Clarity.