Hmm, I really don't see how that thread proves your point. I don't see anything in the blue's responses that would imply that there will be gear slots that you will not be able to get in PVP only. It's only logical that through the arena system, all 14 armor slots and 3 weapon slots will have some gear for purchase. And according to blizzard, it will be updated to ensure that that gear is equivalent or at least similar in quality to that of the best PVE gear.

The way I see the arena system is like this:

You have every single item available to purchase without any prerequisites. The only catch is that you have to pay "tokens" instead of gold for it. You earn those tokens by ranking every week in the arena system, with higher ranks getting more.

So in the end, I really don't see how someone who only PVP's will be lesser geared. Sure, if they dont win as many, it may take longer to get those tokens, but eventually they'll get it. Plus, with PVP, they're more or less guaranteed loot as they dont have to deal with random loot tables or anything of that sort.

Now of course, if you're talking about how fast someone can get geared up, certainly someone who both PVP's and PVE's will gear up relatively faster... although even that is not assured, given raid lockouts and random loot. Hell, someone who PVE's solely might likely gear up more slowly than someone who PVP's slowly, if they have bad luck (this may be especially true in terms of weapons). But the end result will be the same.

This is my understanding for their new system - they have a weekly ELO rating for a team and based on that rating you get a certain amount of points that you actually get to spend. ELO system would pit you in actual competition against the other faction; you would get good rating if you beat good teams and little if you beat bad teams. In ELO you actually loose rating if you loose a game, so you can't get good rating artificially - the good teams won't let you win for nothing since that loss will cost them. As opposed to now, the honor cap is how you get that rating artificially.

This is an important point. Due to that fact that as long as you do 10 games a week, you get some amount of tokens, even a causal player should have enough tokens to get something.

Since it will take some time to get enough tokens to get what you want, it is best to do some PvE on the side while you rank so you can be competitive on the side (I think this is the point).

But I disagree that PvP gear is limited, it just takes time.

I understand your point, and I think it's a good one.

I will point out a few things that I haven't seen anyone really draw attention to though.

We have no idea on the scaling for points in terms of points/week and points/item. This issue's severity is drasticly reduced if the top of the line item x takes 6 weeks to get, and amplified if it takes 6 months. I fully expect the amount of time it takes to be fluxuated by quite a lot.

In addition, you will be able to do BGs and stock up on 'okay' gear, not suffering the same level of restriction, and be able to use a pick and choose system, untill you get the high end arena stuff. While this gear is (admittedly) inferior to top end raid gear, I'd expect it will be enough to get your foot in the door, so to speak.

And lastly, I think it's possibly telling (though I could EASILY be reading to much into this) that they've traditionally used the singular for top item. In other words,t ehre are only a few of the hideously expensive top of the line work for 3 months+ to get items that compare favorably to the raid level epics, not horribly unlike rank 14 weapons atm, and the majority of the items are much more accessable. Not trivial, mind you, but more within reason- say 5 months for that uber weapon/trinket/neck that's a 25 man raid endboss drop, while 1 month/each for a drop ~= bosses leading up to him.

Editing this in:

It's actually a Good Thing (tm) that they're limiting access like this, because then it -can- be comperable to raid gear. It's no fair for a pvp guild to switch around to pve and smash through the entire raid that thhat pve guild's been working on- because they're so pimped out in pvp gear that was a lot easier to get. I know it's a wierd way to look at it, but it's just the reverse of the current (very real) pvers smashing pvp issue.

In fact, limiting like this will (hopefully) make a pvp guild and a pve guild step into uber gear at roughly the same time, assuming 'perfect' balance. This means the new uber weapons and phenominal gear will hit the world at the same time, which I assume they're going for. The issue of course is you can get 1-2 drops a week in a 25 man raid, while the pvper is limited to 1 drop/x weeks. It CAN be accounted for, but I doubt it'll be easy and I bet it'll require adjusting.

Well, in the curren system, luck means, effectively, "when queuing for BGs, you get organized groups as little as possible".

The whole point of doing a rating system is that actually being good at PvP will give you an advantage.

*Refrains from comment on the lack of skills bit*

I find that a rather ignorant statement, for me gear only makes executing a strategy easier. Of course, two equally skilled teams with a huge difference in gear will have an outcome that is easy to divine but if the undergeared team has some phenomenal skill and teamwork and the other team lacks it, the undergeared team can win.

For example, in the first week of Cross Server BGs I brought a guild team, and mind you we are only up to Emps. We didn't end up losing ANY games in the week in which we PvPed pretty hardcorely. One of the various guild teams we came across in the myriad of pugs was a guild very far in Naxx on Elune...and we five capped them.

My point is that gear can't play the game for you, even though it makes doing a job much easier.

I really hope there is a large variety of gear available through the arena. Current pvp gear, especially for hybrids, is a bit lacking for a lot of specs. It would suck as an enhancement shaman to be in the number 1 arena team but the only mail gear available is all +damage gear.

Also I wonder if we will see nice rings amulets and trinkets and not just armour and weapons.

I am not a bluecardplace pro and I haven't kept tabs on the threads in question, but everything I'm going to say in this post is from a legitimate blue post I've read, not hearsay or guessing (well, there will be some guessing, but I'll point that out). You guys don't have to believe me of course but there it is. :P

This issue was brought up in one of the big arena discussion threads where someone mentioned how people would game the rankings by deliberately losing to high teams and a blue replied that essentially WC3s system was more a hybrid system with ELO elements than a fullblown ELO system and that the arena ELO would be more pure. He didn't explicitly say "no, it wont work like that" but it's my guess that's what he meant. I also recall reading a blue post that said it would be very close to the ELO systems used in chess championships, so if you wanted to know more then that would be a good place to look.


On the subject of needing to PVE for gear it was specifically stated by a blue that while arena gear would be comparable to raiding gear you would definately benefit by getting gear from both sources. Now there wasn't any weight to that statement so it's anybody's guess as to how far it goes. It could be that PVE gear just makes gearing up faster because you have 2 limited sources instead of 1, or it could mean that arena gear only covers certain slots. Personally I'm thinking it's likely that there is simply going to be a few choice PVE items you'd want that are better than the arena slots. Things like ZHC or lifegiving gem, or just even better choice for slots so if you want a little less X stat and a little more Y stat there's one of those avalable in PVE.

As for the limited points I figured it was just so you can't save up points indefinately after you've got everything you want and just buy up a new set of rewards as soon as they come out. It's essentially ensuring they get to control the timesink, nothing new here. :P

Hmm maybe I'm missing something in this system, but I see no way to PVP only equip your way to the top. Assuming the regular BG's and honor system are going to a linear point buy, then fine everybody can easily gear up all that stuff (blue sets?) that are admittedly not close to top raid stuff.

However, by winning the Arena's or getting near top ratings at the end of each week it is possible to get PVP gear equal to top tier raid stuff. But which teams are going to be winning the Arena's? Seems like obviously the raiders who already have gear equal to the top stuff that they can win in the Arena. Maybe there are some sideway upgrades that they want to pick and choose over, but the PVP only teams coming in to play them seem like they would have no chance since they are not on equal footing until they can get that top Arena stuff, which they wont get for a long long time because the best stuff they have coming in is lukewarm items from the point buy honor system. Kind of a catch 22.

With skill matching this won't be a problem. The teams that win often will be filtered to the top and into competition with teams that are equally geared and of appropriate skill, even without any form of gear matching.

So collect PvP gear and become competetive with them?

Honestly, Blizzard representatives have stated time and again that their intention is to make the two forms of gear equivalent and to upgrade arena gear to match raid gear.

Yes, raiders will have more versatility but how fair is it for them to not have that versatility if they participate in more content than someone who just plays the arena?

Likewise, what is stopping an arena player from running instances (and raiding) to pick up gear until they can purchase all of their arena gear and become really competetive?

If someone uses a strategy that is fully legal within a game's rules to acquire an advantage, you have no grounds to complain when they best you while staying completely within the rules of the game. Participating in raiding and the arenas and acquiring gear from both to piecemail is a perfectly legal strategy within the game system.

If given equivalent gear, you can't best someone who simply has more options to build a gear set (but doesn't have truly superior gear), they are either more skilled than you or able to build such a specialized and min/maxed set of gear that they gain a legitimate gear advantage. Whichever of those is true, they still deserve to win.

Practical example: I just started playing this character again after a long time of inactivity. I have a handful of epics but mostly instance blues (and one green). If I face someone in GM or tier2+ gear, I get my face rolled up like a katamari without being able to put up anything resembling a fight. Is that fun? Not really. Is it fair? Yes, because I haven't put in the time or effort to collect the gear like my opponents have.

Another practical example: A friend of mine is good at fighting games. He spends many hours playing them and practicing to get better at them. I hardly ever touch fighting games, his understanding of fighting game mechancs and strategies is so much more matured and developed than mine that I have no chance to win against him. Fun to play him? Not really. Fair when I'm beaten? Yes, because he put in much more time and effort to understand the games than I have, so he developed a natural advantage.

If you refuse to try and gain any advantage you can (legally, within the confines of the game rules), even when you are beaten--especially when you are beaten--you don't deserve to win.