What were the numbers again? 25% of the playerbase has seen rag, 15% has seen Nef? Purely speculative but I'd wager probably 80-90% have at one point been inside either WSG/AB/AV, so odds are you're not going to see raid-levels of coordination often enough to make PvP a unformly engaging activity like PvE. Gurg's right, when the stars align and you run into a good group it'll be there, just not too often.

Just had to quote that, since I can't agree more...
I don't believe I'll ever be able to convince some of the officers in my guild of that though.
The previous mage officer in my guild is by far the best geared mage on my server, but he's probably also the worse mage I've ever seen when it comes to pvp. In pve he's extremely good, allways high on damage meters and allways fast at reacting to changes in fights and so forth, but in pvp he just can't seem to react nearly as efficiently.
And like you said. Good pvp'ers are nearly allways (saying nearly since stating "allways" would be wrong as there's allways exceptions to the rule) very good pve players aswell, and I actually prefer to pvp with players before inviting them to a guild, since it gives a very good insight into their skill and knowledge of their class.

When killing the other team becomes the objective, as it will in Arena, there will be more of a gear check than there currently exists.

Skill plays into BGs now because killing the other side is a means to an end. WSG is all about your flag carrier staying away from the other team. From what I understand, AV has devolved into a PvE battlefield where the winning team is the one that races to the other side of the map and downs the opposing leader as fast as possible.

AB you actually have to defend points, but skill still plays into it as well because you can create points of strength.

In Arena, there's no flag to capture, no NPC to kill, no graveyard to rez at when you die. Skill can make up for gear, but what if the other side has as much skill as you do? With the ELO system, where the matches are determined by rating, this will be more often the case than it is currently, probably much more the case.

It's interesting to think about.

*edited due to not reading carefully*

My bad. Thank you to the folks who pointed it out.

Edited due to the post above me being edited.

I find this to be generally true as well. Keep in mind when I refer to a skilled PvPer I'm not necessarly talking about rank 14s. There's plenty of horrible rank 14s (especially these days).

It'll be interesting to see how the new arena system works out with regards to assessing relative skill level. I'm inclined to believe that someone who is a medicore PvPer but has really good gear will enjoy some success, but they'll never reach the top of the ladder. And I'm also inclined to believe that someone in really poor gear who is a very good PvPer will have a rougher time starting out but will eventually get the gear he needs to get to the top. So I guess in that sense, there is a degree of fairness in it. We'll see.

edited for horrible spelling

That would be the ideal situation, although I doubt it will work out perfectly. There will be a few unique PvE gems that PvPers will want, and the PvP gear might be superior for DPSing on the whole than the PvE stuff, so both sides will want some of the other's.

That's exactly the idea. Make gear that will encourage everyone to enjoy both aspects of the game, but at the same time don't make anything that is so much better that its seen as "necessary" or "essential." Above all, don't make any items that you absolutely must have in the raid/team. Thunderfury, for example, is a terrible item from a design perspective in my opinion.

I wouldn't necessarily call Thunderfury a must have for PvP or PvE, but I get what you're saying. TBH I think legendaries are kind of a whole other issue. I definately like having powerful rare items in the game. I'd like to see uber legendary items that could be awarded to the "Grand Champion" Arena PvP team at the end of every season. I'd really like to see cross server Arena PvP as well.

Well there's obviously nothing wrong with legendary items per se, but Thunderfury is different from Sulfuras or Atiesh. Items with very good effects that are difficult to replace, to the point that people will use them over what would otherwise be a straight upgrade, should be avoided in item balance. You see this with 5 piece Earthfury, 8 piece Netherwind, and you're eventually going to be reading more and more threads titled "Thunderfury vs. BetterTankingWeaponX - Serious Discussion".

Arenas are cross server, similar to BGs now.

well one point that I didnt see anyone bring up interestingly is how class pvp balance is going to play into this whole thing. I can easily see certain combination of classes being utterly overpowering especially in smaller 2v2 or 5v5 arena settings. Blizzard has always argued that the game is balanced around large group pvp, but how will this change with the arena system? As a mage I still expect to get completely decimated by warlocks and shadow priests in PvP in TBC and I can see how stacking some of these classes can horribly overpower an arena team. Not to mention there may be no avenue for certain classes/specs for pvp for them being "undesirable."

Only time will tell I guess.

It really is too early to speculate. Thinks like arena size, starting distance, where you first engage, etc., will all play into this somewhat. Admittedly, certain 2v2 combinations strike me as being fairly unstoppable.

I just hope they manage to get the items right this time, currently we're seeing far too many (pure) PvP rewards from PvE and PvP items with stats of no use in actual PvP. For example items that reduce resistance from all over Naxxramas (what's the joke with Kel's staff? I'd take any of the other Naxx weapons over it for PvE, but for PvP it's awesome) and items loaded with spirit and mana regen from BGs and ranking.

It would bring me geart joy if the PvP items for some slots were of lower ilvl than the PvE equivalent, but more powerful for PvP regardless due to intelligent point usage. For example, mage PvP items should have high stam, int, damage, crit, and NO SPIRIT while PvE items high spirit, hit, crit, medium int and low stamina.

First pots O_o

The debate is not about having perfectly even gear PVP or even entirely skill based. The debate is about a level of reasonable competition. In the outside world is it legal to go around as a level 60 doing nothing but ganking people in Hillsbrad? Yes, but it is good gameplay for either the ganker or the ganked? Even though a few lost souls like to do to it, a overwhelming majority of the population says no and many PVP servers were cesspools of this type of activity for a long time when they first started up. But even so, the outside world is no holds barred and it will always be the place where any level of power difference is acceptable and part of the world. But not so with Battlegrounds.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread when BWL was the highest raid instance in the game the gear gap between average 60s and BWL tiered people was getting large but still somewhat manageable, excepting a few items off Nef perhaps. However, that is no longer the case. It comes down to whether you want the PVP game to be competitive at all. Why do you think there are seperate brackets for level 40 and level 50 characters? Because its not a contest to put them together. Well currently naxx gear vs 60 blues is probably very close to the same difference in power level (probably very close to a 10 level difference in power) so why would you build a PVP system that can potentially throw these characters into the same battleground? Perhaps that is fun for one side, to roll people over, 5 cap them,or 2 shot them. If your entire outlook on PVP is nothing more than finding the most efficient way to move a honor or rep bar then fine. I must have mistook PVP in WoW to actually be about fighting other players and for that to have any interest, the combatments must be within the same ballpark in power.

And to this point an FPS mentality is instructive. When you became good at a game like Quake or Counterstrike it was understood that you would go to a server close to your competition level, to push your limits. Any accomplished player that went on purpose to a beginner server or one that said noobs only on the server name, would be mocked and considered a joke. So even in skill based FPS games there are tiers to find a competitive niche its not all about having .10 reflexes or not playing.

The current trend that well geared teams avoid each other because of drawn out games or simply mass /AFK when the tide turns on them is hard for me to understand. I have been in roll over games on the winning side, and honestly while it is better than losing end, it is still very much a total bore for someone looking for real competition. I would much rather be in a close game even if we lost, at least knowing my actions would one way or the other impact the game.

So acquire gear to be better than others and to have an advantage? Certainly, that is part of the idea of a MMO and makes sense. But outgearing to the point where you are doing 40+ percent more DPS than a vast majority of the population, no that should not happen or least not have those players in the same battleground.

On Mug'thol my current server, which is quite well geared, very good PVE teams have actually quit PVP for the opposite reason. There is simply no competition for them now that they cannot play fellow Mug'thol teams due to Battleground sticking us in a Battlegroup with largely new servers. They have to play dozens of games to find anything resembling competition. And you think this is a 'fine as is' PVP system? Currently, my reroll is playing in the 50-59 bracket and at 56 some players are above me and some below me in power. But it is moderate level of difference. And it is probably the most enjoyment I have had out of the PVP system since the first couple weeks of Warsong Gulch. At the very least a Pug vs Join as Team seperation needs to be instituted. If WoW PVP was truly a success there would never have been need of such a silly mechanic as the deserter buff.

You hit the nail on the head. PVE players are in plenty of cases not less skilled than PVP only players. But if most games are laughers why not create a system that tries as much as possible to create the latter bolded part of your text. A tense match requiring execution? You raid the last instance you can because it is a challenge and that is fun. If you went in a instance portal with a random destination and you half the time got ported into UBRS, you would think "oh *^%, not this boring cake dungeon again". And that is the case with many non raiding PVP players who now zone into a BG and half the time see the gleaming sparkle of a Tier 2.5+ team and think "Oh crap, not another boring get farmed at the Graveyard game". It's not about who ends up winning or losing its about there not being any doubt who is going to win or lose before many matches even start that is creating a botched PVP experience.

I dont argue with your rational. Yet sadly we have a PVP system so broken and boring that apparently many PVE (and even PVP) players tend to view it as just another form of PVE progression where you are working toward a objective. That objective might be rank 14, Exalted, A new mount etc. But the problem lies in the fact that the people you are 'resetting' are real paying customers not AI. Paying customers dont want to be 'mobs' that are farmed to move a bar. This will cause them to stop playing the game or find another one for PVP. And its not merely sour grapes either. There are plenty of groups of both raiders and PVP organized teams alike that have moved all their bars and dont like to see every one of their opponents /afk nor have to sit in line 20 games to find a match that they actually need to be awake to even win. You know people that want to be the best and revel in playing the best.

The Arena system looks to cater to this but the regular BG's could as well with something so simple as a tier system when you que up by choosing 'Beginner, Advanced, Elite'. Each tier offer a significant bonus in honor and rep for killing and winning. If you have green gear you dont pick 'Elite'. And if you have Tier 3 you are still free to pick Beginner but you will be playing joke games and earning rep and honor at 1/3 the rate of those playing the best. Thus the most lucrative way to move your bars becomes beating the other best teams. I really dont understand the defense of wanting automatic wins. It is about as silly as going to a starter zone to kill people 40 levels below you because that is helping 'win the war'.

PVP was obviously an afterthought from Blizzard and the honor system simply a horribly punishing system that forced players to PVP nonstop for progression and in competition against their own faction and friends, which is what ultimately created this corruption of the intended gameplay and often turned them against the very part of the game they might otherwise enjoy. Many indeed, do PVP simply as means to an end but viewing it as having no redeeming qualities for its own sake. Yet there are PVP die hards out there that see it could be so much more in those rare cases you have a tense exciting game or brilliant teamwork that leads to a win every bit as rewarding as downing a raid boss. Just these times are so few and far between, and largely due the fault of blizzard's design creating thousands of little gerbils on a treadmill polluting up the battlegrounds in a desire to see little numbers go up in the most efficient way possible.

As you note, the ELO system will match you to the better groups in the Arena. And I can assure you skill can make up for a lot. ELO is blind to the questions of gear, skill, class makeup of your team and all the rest. It will rate you based on a) whether you win or lose and b) who you beat or lost to. So if a team is winning based on skill and another team is winning based on gear, eventually they'll end up fighting each other.

If they were to somehow improve the anti-afk mechanisms they have in place in addition to the current step of announcing the BG rewards being sub-par, perhaps you'll get less of the non-dedicated PvPers in the instance. Further, we don't know what the new battlegrounds, if any, will look like so they may be more contests of skill than anything else. AB lends itself more to organized groups. From my experience, if two organized groups meet up in AV, you either ended up in a stalement or have them racing to the PvE boss at the other side of the map.

If you're referring to For Great Justice as the team that has quit PvP, I first have to laugh at the fact they're considered a PvE guild. They started as a three man PvP guild on Bleeding Hollow, left Bleeding Hollow because our Alliance PvPers got burned out or became honor farmers and then reformed on Mug'thol in search of more competition.

As you can see, I'm a big fan. :)

I'd attribute this to greater situational awareness, better ability to communicate and their competitiveness leading to thinking about how to do things better.

AB, when facing strong competition, is all about being able to evaluate threats, communication and being ready to move. These skills translate well to the more recent boss encounters from what I understand of Naxx and AQ.

Well I tend to agree when the delta in relative power level becomes as severe as 40% more damage and survivability, it's not good competition and it's not particularly fun or rewarding, but that is kind of situational and currently in the game right now the difference between a brand new 60 in greens and blues and a character in Naxx gear is that severe. However once the xpac hits this might change a bit. It's almost like the game's being reset and the grind is starting anew (although raiders will still have a bit of a leg up I think).

But anyway, I still say it's a mistake to have a situation where you try to generally match up opponents based on gear alone. In this game, a characters gear is a component in determining how "good" or effective a player is along with the indivdual players skill. Since one of the fundamental cornerstones of this game is character progression (over time your character gets more powerful), World of Warcraft has to walk a fine line between allowing characters to have meaningful progression but not become "godlike" or whatever relative to other characters. Up until and including BWL, I think the gear delta was acceptable generally. People in rank 14 gear and/or BWL gear where significanlty more powerful but not so far above a fresh 60 that they weren't unbeatable. I guess it's kinda subjective and situational though.

As I said, the Arena system may be a more fair system than the Battlegrounds/Honor system with regards to this. A mediocre player with excellent gear will probably never reach the top of the ladder since there will always be those players with both good gear and skill. An extremely skilled PvPer who just hits 70 will have a rougher time starting out but will eventually accumulate the gear he needs to get to the top. It's just a question of time invested, like most things in this game. We'll see though I guess.

In terms of gear differences, I'm inclined to throw out anybody below 60 full blue geared characters as part of the comparison. Many players hit 60 with a collection of random greens. The difference between those greens and ilevel 60+ blues (including tier 0.5 gear) is pretty big. A rogue might go from 3k to 4k hp, a 30% increase in surviablity. Its really not that hard to get rid of all your greens in order to increase your competitiveness.

I'd actually like to see a system similiar to the Arena system extended to the Battlegrounds. Just like the Arena system you'd have teams and you'd have a ladder system. There'd be different teams for the different battlegrounds. So you could be a member of a WSG team and a AB team at the same time. Like the Arena system, you'd have bench warmers. So for a WSG team, there'd be say 15 members. It'd be an ELO system, just like the Arena system, you beat a higher ranked teamed you get more points than beating a team ranked lower than you. And like the Arena system you could face teams from your own faction, but cross team communication would be disabled during the BG. You'd have seasons, playoff games, and championships.