darun

Well, I've been looking for a proper post about the difference in dps when replacing a combat rogue with a hemo rogue.

This is the hemo spec I had in mind; http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...24310203112151 .

The combat build I've been thinking of replacing is http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/ba...00000000000000.

The talents I can see that will change the DPS would in this case be

Combat
3/3 Imp SnD
5/5 Precision
5/5 Imp DW
5/5 Sword Spec
1/1 Blade Flurry
2/2 Weapon Expertise
3/3 Agression
1/1 Adrenaline Rush

Hemo
1/1 Ghostly Strike (supposed to do more dmg /energy than ss and hemo)
3/3 Serrated Blades
5/5 Deadliness
1/1 Hemorrhage

If using me as an example (since it's I who want a reason to some time spec hemo for raids :P) the rogue would have 1132 AP, 9% hit, 25,31% crit and using an AQR in the MH.

I only found posts about the benefits of hemo but no post where someone did the maths to see if a hemo rogue would decrease / increase the DPS of a raid (40-man). Now hopefully some of you could do the maths for me :).

//Darun

 

Oneiros

A related question: As a raid leader, what mod can I get that puts the total raid DPS at all times onto my screen just so I can monitor how our DPS varies from night to night and encounter to encounter. I currently only use SW Stats as a damage parser. I've been looking for a total raid DPS option in there but so far I have been unsuccessful. If there is some way to see it with SW stats, forgive me for being a total noob. If there isn't please point me in the direction of something that will.

I believe in Harvey Dent.

 

enshula

You can get it from combat log parsers using lossendil's program if you want to.

 

sevenlives

Hemo math: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=8068

and feel free to plug the talent specs into the Spreadsheet that Chalon created, which can be found here: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6692 to see what your projected dps loss on the rogue would be.

Dont forget hemo takes up a debuff spot as well.

I dont see specific DPS numbers on any of the posts, but to be honest, I'm just skimming, and I do believe I have seen Kalman and
Chalon repeatedly bash the spec, and they do seem to be the experts on the mechanics behind the class.

http://img119.exs.cx/img119/4125/sev...bluegel1mg.jpg

 

Jaz

Amg it's Darun, If you really must spec Hemo under the false pretense of increasing raid DPS, spec 30/0/21, I think it's a higher DPS build.

That said, I have seen Servo Arm Rogues with 1100ap without Deadliness, with new Evisc rank, and full DD bonus, keeping SnD up while pumping out 1500 non crit Evisces plummet down the charts on benchmark fights far lower than a mediocre debuff could compensate for.

Remember that the debuff has an oppurtunity cost that comes with it.

This is my white damage stats on a Patchwerk kill, where I did around 700dps over the fight, I seem to have cleared the Recap data. :/

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3...oattackox8.jpg

Don't underestimate what a loss of white damage can do.

 

Ghost

I havent done the math myself, but from reading posts of other rogues who have, and with my own experience using the build I am sure your dps will drop by a substantial amount by specing away from Combat into Hemo. Even taking into account the extra damage the raid gets from debuff it will be a net loss.

also:
This is true to a degree. The number that you will see pop up will be a lot higher, and more energy efficient both. But if you take into account the loss of ~210 damage to the raid from what that Hemorrhage debuff would have provided then Im not sure Ghostly Strike really is better. Most of the time I think the extra 210 hemo damage makes it actually a lot more efficient for raiding than Ghostly Strike is.

 

• frmorrison

To put it simply, the end results would be another debuff slot is taken, a few people may get new Critline records, one Rogue does less damage, and overall raid dps is lowered.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Kytrarewn

Kalman has been pretty diligent about defending hemo under those circumstances.

Here's the thing though: It's not worth it unless the guy's in really shit gear, or really superb gear.
210Dam every 3.5 seconds.

3 hits per rogue, * 5 Rogues.
1.5 hits per warrior * 6 warriors
1 hit per hunter * 4 hunters.

15+9+4 = 28 out of 30. Granted, depending on timing, and dagger vs. sword rogues, and 2H vs. Dual-Wield warriors, and sword spec, and windfury, and the weapons your hunters are using, and blah-blah-blah, it could be more or less.

Here's the thing though, assuming AQ40 gear, you have ~1100 attack power.

2.8 speed 58.4DPS weapon (ie. AQR) with Hemo does 163.2 + 220 or 383.2 damage per non-crit Hemo. Add +7 for subsequent Hemorrhages.

I'm going to ignore Crit, because there's been divergent studies about whether or not Hemorrhage is, in fact, affected by Lethality or not.

Now, let's consider SS. With an SS build, you have 1000 attack power (no deadliness). 402 average non-crit damage per Sinister Strike.

With SS, you get off 15 in a given minute. With Hemorrhage, you get off 17.2 off in a given minute.

6030 SS damage per minute.
6591 Hemorrhage damage per minute.

That's a 9.4 DPS yellow difference (11.4 if you assume that every hemorrhage is a subsequent hemorrhage and gets the benefit of the debuff)

Now, let's consider white DPS (Iblis offhand).
137MH + 70.7 DPS OH w/ Hemorrhage

137MH + 105 OH w/ SS

So, that brings us to 207.7 vs. 242 or a difference of 34.3DPS in white damage.

Net DPS so far is -23 for Hemorrhage, even including Deadliness.

Now, consider that Sword Spec is ~ WDPS + 1.05, so we get 254 white DPS with SS build. That brings us to 46.3 difference in white DPS or 35 net DPS difference.

We're missing "30" DPS, and Imp Rupture, Serrated Blades, and the last point in Imp Evisc and Cold Blood *feel* like they can make up the difference, right?

Unfortunately, no. Because Combat also has some tricks up their sleeve. Weapon Expertise, Aggression, Adrenaline Rush, Blade Flurry, Riposte, Precision. All these other calculations made the assumption that all hits would land, and none would glance. Unfortunately, this is not, in fact, the case.

However, let's assume we add the equivalent of 300 attack power to the Hemorrhage build to each candidate.

1400AP Hemo
1272AP Sinister Strike

163.2 + 280 = 443.2 damager per hemo
163.2 + 218+68 = 449.2 damage per SS

443.2*17.2 = 7623.4 damage per minute Hemo yellow
449.2 * 15 = 6738 damage per minute SS yellow.
885.04 damage per minute difference yellow
14.75 yellow DPS difference (or 16.75 if you assume each hemorrhage gets the +7 from the previous hemorrhage).

As you can see, it's scaling faster than sinister strike without Aggression with your attack power. But that's no surprise, that's why you're asking the question.

Now, hemWDPS: 158.4 MH 81.4 OH = 239.8
ssWDPS: 149.3MH 115.25 OH = 264.55 * 1.05 = 277.78

WDPS delta is ~ 49 or has increased by 3, while hemorrhage DPS delta has increased by 5. Hence, the difference in Hemorrhage DPS scales faster with Attack Power than the increase in Sinister Strike White DPS. This is not, however, including Slice and Dice or Blade Flurry, and all hits are assumed to have landed solidly with no glancing blows. As such, you find 2 of your "missing DPS".

At some point, even including glancing blows, blade flurry, AR, aggression, etc., Hemorrhage DPS will overtake Combat DPS, but that point is a ways into the future because of things like Sword SPecialization (though that's weapon dependent, with something like MSA, it'd happen sooner).

And this also doesn't include Lethality (will affect hemorrhage build w/ higher yellow DPS more strongly than your SS build), Cold Blood (more imp Evisc, affects more strongly than SS build), ability to Evisc or Rupture more often (due to faster CP generation) etc.

So, yeah. Hemorrhage isn't as gimptarded as it once was... but it's still probably not an optimal raid build for many reasons. Foremost among these, IMO, is the following:

"I trust myself to make maximum use of my own abilities. I don't trust the retard Hunter over yonder to do the same."

For an RDPS difference of, maybe, 5-10 DPS, it's really not worth it at all, especially considering that your Raid Hemo build is not at all PvP optimized, so you can't entirely say something like "Well, at least it's a hybrid build" with a clear conscience either.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

Kytrarewn

There is a total RDPS option in there. It's under "raid stats" or somesuch, and shows "Current RDPS, RDPS last fight", and "The Ugly Truth", which is a running RDPS counter from first pull to SWStats reset.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

 

darun

Lo Jaz :O

Thanks for the answers guys, still want to spec hemo, but I guess it'll have to wait until later on when KT is on farm and you're waiting for TBC (if we come so far before TBC). Glad someone did the maths for me.

One thing you might forget about hemo though is higher survivaility (prep = double evasion, vanish, less chance to get hit / crit) which saved me twice on sartura when I was hemo, although on fights with adds bf really shines, so I guess it's better on some encounters than others.

 

◊ Kalman

21/0/30 does more damage than 30/0/21.

Neither does as much damage as combat.

Under certain circumstances (high stats, 2.8 or 2.9 speed weapon) hemo's debuff DPS will allow it to match up to or slightly exceed an equivalently geared combat rogue. This is at the expense of *two* additional debuff slots (one hemo, one Rupture - no, combat rogues should NOT generally be using Rupture to maximize DPS). If you only allow one debuff slot (no Rupture) it goes down to trailing or matching combat.

 

Kody

Ignoring theorycraft and jumping into an experience perspective, I'll say a combat swords rogue going 21ass/30subtlety can hold their own comparatively to how they did as combat. One of ours switched to a hemo build and does fairly similar to what he did before doing so. 1.12 subtlety is pretty strong even for pve now.

 

probiscus

Is that rochan or grizely? I know rochan has MSA, and I thought griz was using AQR... Just trying to get a feel for their unbuffed AP and weapon speed/damage range...

 

DS

It's pretty easy to test, just spec hemo (i recommend 21/0/30) for one Patchwerk and combat for the next one, or vice versa.

Personally I fell from number one with combat maces to number 5 with hemo, still beating our combat sword rogues, and any fight where you can regain energy hemo does even better, you can win DMs on fights like gluth or maexxna etc.

Raid optimal? no. Raid viable, yes, as long as you have a slow weapon and quite high attack power.

The very top raid guilds probably have no use for hemo rogues but if you're on a pvp server want to play an overpowered PVP build and still raid high end... it's pretty darn viable. (not that I'm saying combat isn't good in pvp)

 

Kody

Grizley is Hemo atm. Rochan is combat maces.