Mippo

Well I got into an argument with some guildmates last night saying that defense directly reduces crushing blows which I know not to be true, but I was outnumbered 5 to 1 :( Started looking around at past threads but didn't see any threads that explained combat mechanics the way I've assumed they worked so figured I would start a new thread.

It's one roll, that does the following:

Dodge
Parry
Miss / Critical Hit (integrated)
Block
Hit (Leftover)
Crushing Blow

The reason Defense reduces your chance to be critical hit is because it increases your miss rate which is replacing your chance to be critically hit in the equation. Once Defense surpasses a certain point, you can no longer be critically hit regardless of the rest of the roll.

In order to avoid a critical hit without having enough defense, Dodge + Parry would have to equal 100% which is not possible. Your Block does not affect this because it comes in after your chance to be critically hit.

Shield Block does affect this because it fits in differently then a normal block does. Your Shield Block starts at the beginning, and replaces Critical Hits in the equation. You can still Dodge / Parry / Miss while Shield Block is active, but if the roll lands on critical hit, it is replaced with your Shield Block.

Let's say a player has 20% dodge, 20% parry, 5% miss rate, 1% crit, 15% block and 15% Crushing Blow.

Normal hit table without Shield Block would look like this,

1 -> 200 Dodge
201-> 400 Parry
401 -> 450 Miss
451 -> 460 Critical Hit
461 -> 610 Block
611 -> 850 Hit
851 -> 1000 Crushing Blow

With Shield Block active, it would look like this:

1 -> 200 Dodge
201-> 400 Parry
401 -> 450 Miss
451 -> 900 Block
901 -> 1000 Crushing Blow

Block goes to 900 because it's 75% + 15% = 90% or 900.

I'm curious if anyone has ever seen a situation that does not follow the above formula?

 

◊ Kalman

 

◊ Quigon

With shield block active crushing blow is completely removed in your last example. Most tanks have over 100% blockrate with it up. So I would just use those numbers since they're realistic, even if your example might be accurate.

It should be clear for the readers - this is a mob hitting you, not you hitting the mob. So glancing isn't necessarily in the discussion.

 

Mippo

Yes, but the reason I posted it like that is to show that with less then 25% block, using Shield Block will replace the Critical Hit, but not the Crushing Blow due to where they are on the roll.

The thread the above poster linked without reading my post at all is quite different. The assumption in the linked thread is that if Dodge + Parry + Block + Miss = 100%, nothing else would ever occur which is not true. Even with Block at 90% with Shield Block, you can still be hit by a Crushing Blow.

 

◊ Kalman

I did read your post. Of course, I've read EXACTLY THE SAME THING in numerous other threads here before (yes, including the "Shield block starts from 0 and underlays other things" concept you use to explain requiring block+75% > 100 to zero out crushing). Did you even consider searching to see if your topic had been discussed before? No, you didn't.

I assumed you might want to read the extensive discussion of mechanics subjects in the 9 page post entitled, appropriately enough, "Combat Mechanics 3.0". Which would also be an appropriate place to discuss your theories on combat mechanics, preferably *with proof*, rather than starting another unnecessary new thread.

 

◊ Praetorian

I don't suppose any enterprising theorycrafter used the PTR stat-duping exploit to test combat mechanics? Because being able to actually get cap parry or cap dodge and control those stats precisely would allow for some conclusive testing in this area rather than a lot of speculation.

 

probiscus

Thread over.

 

◊ Kalman

On the 1.11 PTR, someone did test with boosted stats and posted their data here; I may even still have their combat log kicking around. However, different bug, not controllable to cap out specific stats, I don't think. That log was the one that pretty conclusively proved mitigation had to be on the same table as crit/hit/miss.

 

Mippo

I read that thread, and everyone assumes that critical hits are calculated after Blocks. I did not see a single post in all 9 pages that integrated critical hits with misses in the equation which is a very key distinction, and from my experience, the way it actually works.

 

◊ Kalman

Your theory on "the way it actually works" is wrong, is the problem.

+crit does NOT equal -miss. They are not a conserved quantity - in fact, they're proven independent, and this is both well known and confirmed by Blizzard developers.

 

Mippo

Why the hell would +crit = -miss? That's not what I posted.

I'm saying that increasing your miss rate through defense is what reduces your chance to be critically hit.

That's quite different then what you are posting, unless of course you think mobs can increase their chance to critically hit you?

 

• Arawethion

I've said a bunch of times in my thread and other places, there's still a hole in the theory I posted--nobody has explained why you ned 100% block to push crit/crush off. But as far as I know, it explains everything else.

Crit is not before Block, because there are situations where you can block and not be critted, and not the other way around.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

◊ Kalman

Ah. You're still wrong, of course, but at least it's a more comprehensible error now.

The proof that you're wrong is quite simple - insect swarm an equal level mob and track its crit rate. If the crit rate remains the same 5% (as expected by 99% of the world), you're wrong, and the -crit effect from defense has nothing to do with miss. If the crit rate becomes 4%, then you were right.

Even easier, have a rogue spec into Heightened Senses and let a mob beat on them for a while. Is the crit rate 1% or 5%? For that matter, if +miss is also -crit, a rogue with Heightened Senses and Sleight of Hand should be uncrittable, right? +4 miss and -2 crit?

Now, if you want to say "only defense's +miss effect reduces crit rate", then I'll point out that it's an untestable proposition and from the perspective of the player, it doesn't matter if defense's +miss reduces crit, or whether defense is both +miss and -crit separately.

 

• Arawethion

More accurately, there's no situation in which crit pushes off other things.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

◊ Kalman

Well, other than hit.

And yes, there is solid test data to show this: rogues on Loatheb have demonstrated the existence of the theorized "white damage crit cap".

 

Mippo

That's exactly what I said if you bothered to read the post, you clearly didn't.

Only +miss through defense reduces your chance to be critically hit. True, it doesn't matter if it is directly affected, or works seperately but it makes more sense logically for them to be connected since we know the skill does both things.

If you place Critical hits prior to Blocks in the equation "roll", there is no gap in the theory.

 

◊ Kalman

No, it doesn't make any "logical sense for them to be connected", given that NO OTHER +miss functionality gives the same effect. Given the theory that "defense's +miss works differently from all other +miss" vs. "defense has a +miss effect and also a -crit effect", the SIMPLE option is to assume that defense has mutliple effects, rather than to assume that one of its effects is mechanically different from all other appearances of that same effect.

Occam's Razor cuts you for 1000. Stop arguing the point.

Other than the fact that critical hits are *known* to be capped by mitigation effects, and not the other way around? Not to mention you've failed to explain why block+SB needs to be > 100% to push crits off the table as well, according to some warriors?

 

Carnitine

Adding defense reduces your chance to be the victim of a critical strike. This is independent from the other effects of defense such as -hit and +dodge/block/parry. No amount of +dodge/block/parry/defense that is currently available will have any affect on crushing blows, since they are the last thing to get bumped off the table and it's not currently possible to get up to 85% total dodge/block/parry/miss. Shield block eliminates crushing blows because it bumps them off the table, assuming you have at least 25% total dodge/block/parry.

Adding defense does have an affect on crushing blows if you have less than 300 defense, but considering the context of the discussion, this is not an important point.

 

Mygore

It was impossible to dupe anything thats not a stat so maxing parry was impossible as no stat increases parry chance, dodge on the other hand was possible. Thou I did stat dupe on my hunter (worse class, dam there scaling) and went into MC with a dodge rate , according to the tooltip, of about 170% and I believe I still got hit. I can't actually remember but according to one screen shot I have I had lost some HP against a Lava Annihilator which I believe do no magic damage.

Make of this what you will, it could be the most useless information ever.

 

Mippo

If the game only rolls one time, it's not possible for you to be critically hit and block at the same time but that does not necessarily mean that block has to be before critical hits in the equation.

Assume this is the roll,

1 -> 200 Dodge
201-> 400 Parry
401 -> 450 Miss
451 -> 460 Critical Hit
461 -> 610 Block
611 -> 850 Hit
851 -> 1000 Crushing Blow

If it rolls a 455, you are critically hit.
If it rolls a 475, you block the attack.

It's still maintaining the same percentages to be critically hit or to block the attack.

Since it only rolls once, you can never do both but simply because you can not block a critical hit does not automatically mean that block must be prior to critical hits in the equation. That's an assumption you are making with no proof.

The question is, are critical hits located before or after Blocks on the roll?

 

◊ Kalman

Actually, a rogue properly specced and geared can hit >85% d/p/m. I don't think anyone has, of course, since it's a bizarre set of gear.

 

grimjack

Not to hijack the thread but I'm terrible with combat mechanics and if you've seen my previous posts you would know.


My question is at what point does dodge = stamina = armor? In other words, how much stam is equal to 1% dodge or is equal to 100 armor and so on.


Also to add my useless bit of theory from what I read, is it possible that crit is done outside of hit? in other words, a mob hits then a second roll is done to see if it is a crit. Maybe like a 3% chance or something. A crit is always a chance, similar to rolling a 20 in the old tabletop games. The only thing that negates that 20 is an equal balance on the other side, or 100% block.


Thanks in advance for any response

 

Mippo

Praetorian is right, what I posted here was wrong.

 

◊ Kalman

*Everything* is located before regular hits, as everything pushes regular hits off (yes, including Crushing).

However, the simple fact that d+p+b+m+c > 100 reduces c first implies block is above crit.

 

◊ Praetorian

If crits bump crushes off the table, how is it that crushes can also bump crits off the table?

As I understand it, if a bear with 300 defense tanks Vek'nilash and gets hit with Unbalancing and knocked down to 200 defense, every single hit on the bear will crush. Zero crits.

It's all very odd.