The Combat mechanics revisited - Page 2

Mippo · 09/12/06, 2:47 PM

That's exactly what I said if you bothered to read the post, you clearly didn't.

Only +miss through defense reduces your chance to be critically hit. True, it doesn't matter if it is directly affected, or works seperately but it makes more sense logically for them to be connected since we know the skill does both things.

If you place Critical hits prior to Blocks in the equation "roll", there is no gap in the theory.

Kalman · 09/12/06, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

That's exactly what I said if you bothered to read the post, you clearly didn't.

Only +miss through defense reduces your chance to be critically hit. True, it doesn't matter if it is directly affected, or works seperately but it makes more sense logically for them to be connected since we know the skill does both things.

No, it doesn't make any "logical sense for them to be connected", given that NO OTHER +miss functionality gives the same effect. Given the theory that "defense's +miss works differently from all other +miss" vs. "defense has a +miss effect and also a -crit effect", the SIMPLE option is to assume that defense has mutliple effects, rather than to assume that one of its effects is mechanically different from all other appearances of that same effect.

Occam's Razor cuts you for 1000. Stop arguing the point.

If you place Critical hits prior to Blocks in the equation "roll", there is no gap in the theory.

Other than the fact that critical hits are *known* to be capped by mitigation effects, and not the other way around? Not to mention you've failed to explain why block+SB needs to be > 100% to push crits off the table as well, according to some warriors?

Carnitine · 09/12/06, 2:58 PM

Adding defense reduces your chance to be the victim of a critical strike. This is independent from the other effects of defense such as -hit and +dodge/block/parry. No amount of +dodge/block/parry/defense that is currently available will have any affect on crushing blows, since they are the last thing to get bumped off the table and it's not currently possible to get up to 85% total dodge/block/parry/miss. Shield block eliminates crushing blows because it bumps them off the table, assuming you have at least 25% total dodge/block/parry.

Adding defense does have an affect on crushing blows if you have less than 300 defense, but considering the context of the discussion, this is not an important point.

• Mygore · 09/12/06, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

I don't suppose any enterprising theorycrafter used the PTR stat-duping exploit to test combat mechanics? Because being able to actually get cap parry or cap dodge and control those stats precisely would allow for some conclusive testing in this area rather than a lot of speculation.

It was impossible to dupe anything thats not a stat so maxing parry was impossible as no stat increases parry chance, dodge on the other hand was possible. Thou I did stat dupe on my hunter (worse class, dam there scaling) and went into MC with a dodge rate , according to the tooltip, of about 170% and I believe I still got hit. I can't actually remember but according to one screen shot I have I had lost some HP against a Lava Annihilator which I believe do no magic damage.

Make of this what you will, it could be the most useless information ever.

Mippo · 09/12/06, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Crit is not before Block, because there are situations where you can block and not be critted, and not the other way around.

More accurately, there's no situation in which crit pushes off other things.

If the game only rolls one time, it's not possible for you to be critically hit and block at the same time but that does not necessarily mean that block has to be before critical hits in the equation.

Assume this is the roll,

1 -> 200 Dodge
201-> 400 Parry
401 -> 450 Miss
451 -> 460 Critical Hit
461 -> 610 Block
611 -> 850 Hit
851 -> 1000 Crushing Blow

If it rolls a 455, you are critically hit.
If it rolls a 475, you block the attack.

It's still maintaining the same percentages to be critically hit or to block the attack.

Since it only rolls once, you can never do both but simply because you can not block a critical hit does not automatically mean that block must be prior to critical hits in the equation. That's an assumption you are making with no proof.

The question is, are critical hits located before or after Blocks on the roll?

Kalman · 09/12/06, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Carnitine

Adding defense reduces your chance to be the victim of a critical strike. This is independent from the other effects of defense such as -hit and +dodge/block/parry. No amount of +dodge/block/parry/defense that is currently available will have any affect on crushing blows, since they are the last thing to get bumped off the table and it's not currently possible to get up to 85% total dodge/block/parry/miss. Shield block eliminates crushing blows because it bumps them off the table, assuming you have at least 25% total dodge/block/parry.

Actually, a rogue properly specced and geared can hit >85% d/p/m. I don't think anyone has, of course, since it's a bizarre set of gear.

grimjack · 09/12/06, 3:05 PM

Not to hijack the thread but I'm terrible with combat mechanics and if you've seen my previous posts you would know.

My question is at what point does dodge = stamina = armor? In other words, how much stam is equal to 1% dodge or is equal to 100 armor and so on.

Also to add my useless bit of theory from what I read, is it possible that crit is done outside of hit? in other words, a mob hits then a second roll is done to see if it is a crit. Maybe like a 3% chance or something. A crit is always a chance, similar to rolling a 20 in the old tabletop games. The only thing that negates that 20 is an equal balance on the other side, or 100% block.

Thanks in advance for any response

Mippo · 09/12/06, 3:05 PM

Praetorian is right, what I posted here was wrong.

Kalman · 09/12/06, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Crit is not before Block, because there are situations where you can block and not be critted, and not the other way around.

More accurately, there's no situation in which crit pushes off other things.

If the game only rolls one time, it's not possible for you to be critically hit and block at the same time but that does not necessarily mean that block has to be before critical hits in the equation.

Assume this is the roll,

1 -> 200 Dodge
201-> 400 Parry
401 -> 450 Miss
451 -> 460 Critical Hit
461 -> 610 Block
611 -> 850 Hit
851 -> 1000 Crushing Blow

If it rolls a 455, you are critically hit.
If it rolls a 475, you block the attack.

It's still maintaining the same percentages to be critically hit or to block the attack.

Since it only rolls once, you can never do both but simply because you can not block a critical hit does not automatically mean that block must be prior to critical hits in the equation. That's an assumption you are making with no proof.

If you consider the fact that blocks with less then 100% knock critical hits off the equation, but not Crushing Blows, then it is obvious that critical hits are located before Crushing Blows in the equation.

Further evidence shows that Critical Hits also knock hits out of the equation, so they also must be located before normal Hits.

Lastly, Blocks also knock normal hits out of the equation, so they must be located prior to Hits as well.

The question is, are critical hits located before or after Blocks on the roll?

*Everything* is located before regular hits, as everything pushes regular hits off (yes, including Crushing).

However, the simple fact that d+p+b+m+c > 100 reduces c first implies block is above crit.

♦ Praetorian · 09/12/06, 3:07 PM

If crits bump crushes off the table, how is it that crushes can also bump crits off the table?

As I understand it, if a bear with 300 defense tanks Vek'nilash and gets hit with Unbalancing and knocked down to 200 defense, every single hit on the bear will crush. Zero crits.

It's all very odd.

Kalman · 09/12/06, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by grimjack

Not to hijack the thread but I'm terrible with combat mechanics and if you've seen my previous posts you would know.

My question is at what point does dodge = stamina = armor? In other words, how much stam is equal to 1% dodge or is equal to 100 armor and so on.

Also to add my useless bit of theory from what I read, is it possible that crit is done outside of hit? in other words, a mob hits then a second roll is done to see if it is a crit. Maybe like a 3% chance or something. A crit is always a chance, similar to rolling a 20 in the old tabletop games. The only thing that negates that 20 is an equal balance on the other side, or 100% block.

Thanks in advance for any response

Crit is not done outside of the hit roll - there's ample proof of this if you parse combat data for someone with a fairly high miss rate (e.g. a low level DWing rogue). The crit rate parsed (crits/hit) won't match tooltip crit rate, but if you calculate crits/swing it will. This is because crit and hit are determined atomically and simultaneously.

Carnitine · 09/12/06, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Carnitine

Adding defense reduces your chance to be the victim of a critical strike. This is independent from the other effects of defense such as -hit and +dodge/block/parry. No amount of +dodge/block/parry/defense that is currently available will have any affect on crushing blows, since they are the last thing to get bumped off the table and it's not currently possible to get up to 85% total dodge/block/parry/miss. Shield block eliminates crushing blows because it bumps them off the table, assuming you have at least 25% total dodge/block/parry.

Actually, a rogue properly specced and geared can hit >85% d/p/m. I don't think anyone has, of course, since it's a bizarre set of gear.

Well we've got 2 rogues that become unhittable with evasion up and we use them to tank Razuvious. In this case crushing blows aren't an issue because taking any damage at all isn't an issue (at least according to the math and our experience so far. The tiny chance of anything happening might still be in effect). I was mostly referring to warriors in the above post, although our shield block and their evasion create similar hit tables as far as crushing blows go.

Kalman · 09/12/06, 3:13 PM

Originally Posted by Carnitine

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Carnitine

Adding defense reduces your chance to be the victim of a critical strike. This is independent from the other effects of defense such as -hit and +dodge/block/parry. No amount of +dodge/block/parry/defense that is currently available will have any affect on crushing blows, since they are the last thing to get bumped off the table and it's not currently possible to get up to 85% total dodge/block/parry/miss. Shield block eliminates crushing blows because it bumps them off the table, assuming you have at least 25% total dodge/block/parry.

Actually, a rogue properly specced and geared can hit >85% d/p/m. I don't think anyone has, of course, since it's a bizarre set of gear.

Well we've got 2 rogues that become unhittable with evasion up and we use them to tank Razuvious. In this case crushing blows aren't an issue because taking any damage at all isn't an issue (at least according to the math and our experience so far. The tiny chance of anything happening might still be in effect). I was mostly referring to warriors in the above post, although our shield block and their evasion create similar hit tables as far as crushing blows go.

I didn't mean with Evasion up (just in case mitigation buffs operate differently, like in the mentioned 25% block required for SB to make you uncrush/crittable, which I'm still not sure of one way or the other).

Mippo · 09/12/06, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

If crits bump crushes off the table, how is it that crushes can also bump crits off the table?

As I understand it, if a bear with 300 defense tanks Vek'nilash and gets hit with Unbalancing and knocked down to 200 defense, every single hit on the bear will crush. Zero crits.

It's all very odd.

No, you're likely right.

Put the Crushing Blows at the end of the roll, and they can't be knocked off by hits / critical hits so as the other side of the roll shifts, the hits get knocked off for the crushing blows, then the critical hits get replaced as well. When the Block comes in, it starts to replace the Crushing Blow.

The question is does a Warrior with 10% block on a level 63 boss ever get critically hit with Shield Block up, or do they only get hit by the Crushing.

Mippo · 09/12/06, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Mippo

That's exactly what I said if you bothered to read the post, you clearly didn't.

Only +miss through defense reduces your chance to be critically hit. True, it doesn't matter if it is directly affected, or works seperately but it makes more sense logically for them to be connected since we know the skill does both things.

No, it doesn't make any "logical sense for them to be connected", given that NO OTHER +miss functionality gives the same effect. Given the theory that "defense's +miss works differently from all other +miss" vs. "defense has a +miss effect and also a -crit effect", the SIMPLE option is to assume that defense has mutliple effects, rather than to assume that one of its effects is mechanically different from all other appearances of that same effect.

Occam's Razor cuts you for 1000. Stop arguing the point.

If you place Critical hits prior to Blocks in the equation "roll", there is no gap in the theory.

Other than the fact that critical hits are *known* to be capped by mitigation effects, and not the other way around? Not to mention you've failed to explain why block+SB needs to be > 100% to push crits off the table as well, according to some warriors?

The difference is that defense affects both aspects of the roll so it would make more sense for them to combine those parts and only use it once during the roll rather then putting them in separate locations and making two checks.

If the miss rate from Defense and the Critical hit rate from defense were in the same spot in the roll, it only requires one check. Defense = X, miss / crit rate = Y.

However if the miss rate and critical hit rate are located in separate areas, it would have to check your Defense skill each time. Assuming my understanding of programming is correct, it would be easier for them to just group both of those things in one place.

The question is when you block with less then 100%, do you get critically hit or do you get a crushing blow? My understanding is that you get the Crushing Blow instead.