The Combat mechanics revisited - Page 3

Carnitine · 09/12/06, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Originally Posted by Praetorian

If crits bump crushes off the table, how is it that crushes can also bump crits off the table?

As I understand it, if a bear with 300 defense tanks Vek'nilash and gets hit with Unbalancing and knocked down to 200 defense, every single hit on the bear will crush. Zero crits.

It's all very odd.

No, you're likely right.

Put the Crushing Blows at the end of the roll, and they can't be knocked off by hits / critical hits so as the other side of the roll shifts, the hits get knocked off for the crushing blows, then the critical hits get replaced as well. When the Block comes in, it starts to replace the Crushing Blow.

The question is does a Warrior with 10% block on a level 63 boss ever get critically hit with Shield Block up, or do they only get hit by the Crushing.

It's likely that they'd have 15% between dodge and parry so it's still unlikely that they would get crit or crushed. Parry and dodge both have priority over block, for obvious reasons.

Mippo · 09/12/06, 3:45 PM

Shield Block doesn't add onto Parry and Dodge so even with 15%, you would still get hit by the Crushing Blow if your Block is less then 100%.

Carnitine · 09/12/06, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Shield Block doesn't add onto Parry and Dodge so even with 15%, you would still get hit by the Crushing Blow if your Block is less then 100%.

Wrong. If you have 25% total between dodge/parry/block, adding another 75% block will knock off everything else, since 25% + 75% = 100%. Actually 20% would likely do it since the mob would still have at least a 5% miss rate. There's really nothing confusing about this concept. Parrying an attack is better than blocking one. 3000 turning into 0 is better than 3000 turning into 2800.

Keldor · 09/12/06, 3:59 PM

Interesting Test for someone:

1) Get a shield with no stats that should effect the table (agility/defense/etc).
2) Get another identical shield and put a Lesser Block enchant on it.
3) Find a level 63 mob that can attack you and will do crushing blows.
4) Have the mob beat on you a while with the unenchanted shiled on and keep a combat log.
5) Have the mob beat on you a while with the enchanted shiled on and keep a combat log.
6) Have the mob beat on you a while with no shield on and keep the combat log.
7) Compare the three logs.

This should give great insite into what block actually removes from the combat table and wher it is located.

• Hamlet · 09/12/06, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Carnitine

Originally Posted by Mippo

Shield Block doesn't add onto Parry and Dodge so even with 15%, you would still get hit by the Crushing Blow if your Block is less then 100%.

Wrong. If you have 25% total between dodge/parry/block, adding another 75% block will knock off everything else, since 25% + 75% = 100%. Actually 20% would likely do it since the mob would still have at least a 5% miss rate. There's really nothing confusing about this concept. Parrying an attack is better than blocking one. 3000 turning into 0 is better than 3000 turning into 2800.

No, this is false. Read my first post on this thread. It would seem most consistent if it worked that way, but it doesn't.

Carnitine · 09/12/06, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Arawethion

Originally Posted by Carnitine

Originally Posted by Mippo

Shield Block doesn't add onto Parry and Dodge so even with 15%, you would still get hit by the Crushing Blow if your Block is less then 100%.

Wrong. If you have 25% total between dodge/parry/block, adding another 75% block will knock off everything else, since 25% + 75% = 100%. Actually 20% would likely do it since the mob would still have at least a 5% miss rate. There's really nothing confusing about this concept. Parrying an attack is better than blocking one. 3000 turning into 0 is better than 3000 turning into 2800.

No, this is false. Read my first post on this thread. It would seem most consistent if it worked that way, but it doesn't.

Your first post is more of a question and provides no evidence or logic to support this theory. Maybe you should elaborate.

Kalman · 09/12/06, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Originally Posted by Kalman

Originally Posted by Mippo

That's exactly what I said if you bothered to read the post, you clearly didn't.

Only +miss through defense reduces your chance to be critically hit. True, it doesn't matter if it is directly affected, or works seperately but it makes more sense logically for them to be connected since we know the skill does both things.

No, it doesn't make any "logical sense for them to be connected", given that NO OTHER +miss functionality gives the same effect. Given the theory that "defense's +miss works differently from all other +miss" vs. "defense has a +miss effect and also a -crit effect", the SIMPLE option is to assume that defense has mutliple effects, rather than to assume that one of its effects is mechanically different from all other appearances of that same effect.

Occam's Razor cuts you for 1000. Stop arguing the point.

If you place Critical hits prior to Blocks in the equation "roll", there is no gap in the theory.

Other than the fact that critical hits are *known* to be capped by mitigation effects, and not the other way around? Not to mention you've failed to explain why block+SB needs to be > 100% to push crits off the table as well, according to some warriors?

The difference is that defense affects both aspects of the roll so it would make more sense for them to combine those parts and only use it once during the roll rather then putting them in separate locations and making two checks.

If the miss rate from Defense and the Critical hit rate from defense were in the same spot in the roll, it only requires one check. Defense = X, miss / crit rate = Y.

However if the miss rate and critical hit rate are located in separate areas, it would have to check your Defense skill each time. Assuming my understanding of programming is correct, it would be easier for them to just group both of those things in one place.

There's nothing easier about your method; in both cases you have to calculate seperate crit and miss values and fill the table appropriately. Since the derived delta from defense is the same for both, and on any given combat round defender defense vs. attacker skill has to be computed (to appropriately delta those values which are changed by the comparison), most likely both are specified in code as "Base Miss + DefMod + MissBuffs - +Hit" and "Base Crit - DefMod + CritMod", etc, etc, and then the tables are filled appropriately. Your method, again, adds unnecessary complexity without saving any code time.

Mippo · 09/12/06, 4:42 PM

Well here is my problem with your theory. You say that Warriors have claimed to have gotten hit by a critical hit while Shield Block was active, yet I've never seen it. Even when I drop all of my equipment (at level 60 thats 10.4% block with talents) I still have never seen a critical hit while Shield Block is active.

I've seen Crushing Blows occur, but not Critical hits. If I parse on mobs that can't Crushing Blow I still don't get critically hit which is why I tend to believe that Crushing Blow is the last thing on the roll, if the mob can't Crushing Blow, the roll is just calculated over a lower amount, minus the Crushing Blow.

Maybe it's possible that 10% is the end of the line (85% with SB active) so Warriors with less then 10% due to lack of protection talents can be critically hit with Shield Block active?

Honestly, I'd like to see a screenshot or a log of someone getting critically hit with Shield Block active, regardless of their block percentage.

Kalman · 09/12/06, 4:45 PM

I'd love to see the combat log showing it myself. However, based on the knowledge that attacking all mitigation precedes criticals in priority, including glancing, the *assumption* is that it works the same way in reverse.

The major problem with getting a log of that variety is that most tanks will have enough defense to reduce critical chance to near zero or to zero.

Your statement "If I parse on mobs that can't Crushing Blow I still don't get critically hit which is why I tend to believe that Crushing Blow is the last thing on the roll, if the mob can't Crushing Blow, the roll is just calculated over a lower amount, minus the Crushing Blow" is simply contrary to how the system is known to work. Unpopulated elements of the table are normal hits, they aren't taken off of the table entirely.

Emeraude · 09/12/06, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Well I got into an argument with some guildmates last night saying that defense directly reduces crushing blows which I know not to be true, but I was outnumbered 5 to 1 :( Started looking around at past threads but didn't see any threads that explained combat mechanics the way I've assumed they worked so figured I would start a new thread.

As a Warrior, any defense above 300 will not reduce crushing blows vs a 63 mob, the base chance a 63 mob has to crush you as a 60 player is 15%, nothing reduces this value, except for the ability shield block

Originally Posted by Mippo

It's one roll, that does the following:

Dodge
Parry
Miss / Critical Hit (integrated)
Block
Hit (Leftover)
Crushing Blow

Hit has dead-last "priority" it's the first think to be replaced on a mob's combat table when you add +dodge/parry/block.

Originally Posted by Mippo

The reason Defense reduces your chance to be critical hit is because it increases your miss rate which is replacing your chance to be critically hit in the equation. Once Defense surpasses a certain point, you can no longer be critically hit regardless of the rest of the roll.

Yes/No, when you add 1 point of defense 5 things happen:

Crit reduced by .04%(Hit increased)
Dodge increased .04%(Hit reduced)
Block increased .04%(Hit reduced)
Parry increased .04%(Hit reduced)
Hit reduced by .04%(Miss increased)

Originally Posted by Mippo

In order to avoid a critical hit without having enough defense, Dodge + Parry would have to equal 100% which is not possible. Your Block does not affect this because it comes in after your chance to be critically hit.

When you shield block you stop crits/crushes, shield block simulates a table that would show you what it would look like if your block ever got that high. Miss/Dodge/Parry hold more weight than block, that is it would be determintal for the attacker if block pushes miss/dodge/parry back(I'll elaborate on this if you want and this whole "priority system" that confuses people)

Originally Posted by Mippo

Shield Block does affect this because it fits in differently then a normal block does. Your Shield Block starts at the beginning, and replaces Critical Hits in the equation. You can still Dodge / Parry / Miss while Shield Block is active, but if the roll lands on critical hit, it is replaced with your Shield Block.

More or less.

Originally Posted by Mippo

Let's say a player has 20% dodge, 20% parry, 5% miss rate, 1% crit, 15% block and 15% Crushing Blow.

Normal hit table without Shield Block would look like this,

1 -> 200 Dodge
201-> 400 Parry
401 -> 450 Miss
451 -> 460 Critical Hit
461 -> 610 Block
611 -> 850 Hit
851 -> 1000 Crushing Blow

With Shield Block active, it would look like this:

1 -> 200 Dodge
201-> 400 Parry
401 -> 450 Miss
451 -> 900 Block
901 -> 1000 Crushing Blow

Block goes to 900 because it's 75% + 15% = 90% or 900.

When Shield Block is active your table would look like this actually:
1 -> 50 Miss
51-> 250 Parry
251 -> 450 Dodge
451 -> 1000 Block

Shield Block devours what's left of your table, you cannot get crushed/crit while shield block is active IF your base avoidance miss/dodge/parry/block is greater than 25% because block does not hold more weight/priority on the table than miss/dodge/parry.

Emeraude · 09/12/06, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Well here is my problem with your theory. You say that Warriors have claimed to have gotten hit by a critical hit while Shield Block was active, yet I've never seen it. Even when I drop all of my equipment (at level 60 thats 10.4% block with talents) I still have never seen a critical hit while Shield Block is active.

I've seen Crushing Blows occur, but not Critical hits. If I parse on mobs that can't Crushing Blow I still don't get critically hit which is why I tend to believe that Crushing Blow is the last thing on the roll, if the mob can't Crushing Blow, the roll is just calculated over a lower amount, minus the Crushing Blow.

Maybe it's possible that 10% is the end of the line (85% with SB active) so Warriors with less then 10% due to lack of protection talents can be critically hit with Shield Block active?

Honestly, I'd like to see a screenshot or a log of someone getting critically hit with Shield Block active, regardless of their block percentage.

There was a nice 23-long page thread on the old WoW Warrior boards where somebody thought they blocked a crush when in fact they blocked one of Gluth's enraged attacks(Hit for 2100(200 blocked), Crush for 2300 following). It was a very annoying arguement, the op finally did some research and admitted to being wrong.

Lotta people are ready to cry wolf on the subject, but they don't provide details on what happened, buffs, full combat logs, if shield block was actually up, etc

Mippo · 09/12/06, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

I'd love to see the combat log showing it myself. However, based on the knowledge that attacking all mitigation precedes criticals in priority, including glancing, the *assumption* is that it works the same way in reverse.

The major problem with getting a log of that variety is that most tanks will have enough defense to reduce critical chance to near zero or to zero.

Your statement "If I parse on mobs that can't Crushing Blow I still don't get critically hit which is why I tend to believe that Crushing Blow is the last thing on the roll, if the mob can't Crushing Blow, the roll is just calculated over a lower amount, minus the Crushing Blow" is simply contrary to how the system is known to work. Unpopulated elements of the table are normal hits, they aren't taken off of the table entirely.

How the system actually works, or how people are guessing the system works? There is a big difference between the two.

If a mob can't Crushing Blow, and say has a 10% chance to critically hit, then how do you explain why someone with a base 10.4% chance to block + Shield Block is not getting critically hit.

If it worked as the system is "known to work" wouldn't the leftover block % become critical hits and hits leftover?

So it would become 85.4% chance to block, say 5% crit, then 9.6% hit.

Except, that's not what happens. In addition, if block is less then 25%, Crushing Blows are possible(not on the same attack as a block), while critical hits are not. How do you explain that?

Again, the known method does not compute.

However, if you add Crushing Blows in at the end like I did in my initial post it works. If a mob can't Crushing Blow, simply remove it from the equation - it still works. The entire roll would work as normal, Crushing Blows are just added in at the end of the roll.

If a Hit gets pushed into the Crushing Blow, it gets knocked off the list.
If a Critical Hit gets pushed into Crushing Blow, it also gets knocked off the list.

I don't think it's possible to do that though, again back to my original post.

If the Critical hit is located before Blocks in the equation it means 2 things.

1) Your innate Block % will never affect your chance to be critically hit
2) Shield Block will ALWAYS remove the chance to be critically hit

Both of which, at this point in time, have not been proven false from what I can see so they are assumed to be true from what we know. Secondly, it also explains why you can negate critical hits even if your block percentage is less then 100, yet you can't negate Crushing Blows with less then 100%.

What happens when your defense drops below 300 with Crushing Blows at the end of the equation? It would cut into your chance to be hit, and eventually your chance to be critically hit to the point where every hit would become a Crushing Blow. That also lends credibility to the fact Crushing Blow is at the back of the roll, and not hit which people commonly think.

Why does the roll have to be a set amount with things getting filled in? Is there any evidence that suggests the roll can't be increased if the mob is of a higher level to add crushing blows into the equation? Ie - the amount of the roll simply depends on the mob's level in relation to your own?

Kalman · 09/12/06, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mippo

Originally Posted by Kalman

I'd love to see the combat log showing it myself. However, based on the knowledge that attacking all mitigation precedes criticals in priority, including glancing, the *assumption* is that it works the same way in reverse.

The major problem with getting a log of that variety is that most tanks will have enough defense to reduce critical chance to near zero or to zero.

Your statement "If I parse on mobs that can't Crushing Blow I still don't get critically hit which is why I tend to believe that Crushing Blow is the last thing on the roll, if the mob can't Crushing Blow, the roll is just calculated over a lower amount, minus the Crushing Blow" is simply contrary to how the system is known to work. Unpopulated elements of the table are normal hits, they aren't taken off of the table entirely.

How the system actually works, or how people are guessing the system works? There is a big difference between the two.

If a mob can't Crushing Blow, and say has a 10% chance to critically hit, then how do you explain why someone with a base 10.4% chance to block + Shield Block is not getting critically hit.

If it worked as the system is "known to work" wouldn't the leftover block % become critical hits and hits leftover?

So it would become 85.4% chance to block, say 5% crit, then 9.6% hit.

Except, that's not what happens. In addition, if block is less then 25%, Crushing Blows are possible(not on the same attack as a block), while critical hits are not. How do you explain that?

Again, the known method does not compute.

What the *hell* are you talking about? First off, we all realize that shield block seems to work differently in some fashion. Second off, why 5% crit and 9.6% hit? Hit is the leftovers - in that case you'd expect 10% crit and 4.6% hits (assuming no miss/dodge/parry, which would consume your 14.6% first).

As to how I explain block < 25% allowing crushes, but not crits - Crushing being higher priority than crit pushes crit off the table. There. It's explained.

However, if you add Crushing Blows in at the end like I did in my initial post it works. If a mob can't Crushing Blow, simply remove it from the equation - it still works. The entire roll would work as normal, Crushing Blows are just added in at the end of the roll.

If a Hit gets pushed into the Crushing Blow, it gets knocked off the list.
If a Critical Hit gets pushed into Crushing Blow, it also gets knocked off the list.

You can't "push hit" into anything, because hit is the leftovers - there's no fixed hit % like there is with the other quantities, hit is just anything that isn't anything else.

I don't think it's possible to do that though, again back to my original post.

If the Critical hit is located before Blocks in the equation it means 2 things.

1) Your innate Block % will never affect your chance to be critically hit
2) Shield Block will ALWAYS remove the chance to be critically hit

Both of which, at this point in time, have not been proven false from what I can see so they are assumed to be true from what we know. Secondly, it also explains why you can negate critical hits even if your block percentage is less then 100, yet you can't negate Crushing Blows with less then 100%.

Neither have been proven true, either.

What happens when your defense drops below 300 with Crushing Blows at the end of the equation? It would cut into your chance to be hit, and eventually your chance to be critically hit to the point where every hit would become a Crushing Blow. That also lends credibility to the fact Crushing Blow is at the back of the roll, and not hit which people commonly think.

No, it doesn't. The same behavior is observed if crushing precedes hit and crit, which is what most people's assumption is (that crushing will push those off first).

Why does the roll have to be a set amount with things getting filled in? Is there any evidence that suggests the roll can't be increased if the mob is of a higher level to add crushing blows into the equation? Ie - the amount of the roll simply depends on the mob's level in relation to your own?

Yes. The 5% rates. Since crit/miss/whatever are calculated across *swings* and not across hits, if crushing blow expanded the table, those values would no longer be the expected numbers (and they've tested well to be those expected numbers). And no, they're not going to recalculate % of table filled in order to account for the crushing expansion of the table - that's just stupid.

Mippo · 09/12/06, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Originally Posted by Mippo

Well here is my problem with your theory. You say that Warriors have claimed to have gotten hit by a critical hit while Shield Block was active, yet I've never seen it. Even when I drop all of my equipment (at level 60 thats 10.4% block with talents) I still have never seen a critical hit while Shield Block is active.

I've seen Crushing Blows occur, but not Critical hits. If I parse on mobs that can't Crushing Blow I still don't get critically hit which is why I tend to believe that Crushing Blow is the last thing on the roll, if the mob can't Crushing Blow, the roll is just calculated over a lower amount, minus the Crushing Blow.

Maybe it's possible that 10% is the end of the line (85% with SB active) so Warriors with less then 10% due to lack of protection talents can be critically hit with Shield Block active?

Honestly, I'd like to see a screenshot or a log of someone getting critically hit with Shield Block active, regardless of their block percentage.

There was a nice 23-long page thread on the old WoW Warrior boards where somebody thought they blocked a crush when in fact they blocked one of Gluth's enraged attacks(Hit for 2100(200 blocked), Crush for 2300 following). It was a very annoying arguement, the op finally did some research and admitted to being wrong.

Lotta people are ready to cry wolf on the subject, but they don't provide details on what happened, buffs, full combat logs, if shield block was actually up, etc

You can't block a crushing blow, but you can be hit by a crushing blow with Shield Block active if your block % is below 25%. Contrary to what you are posting, it's not Dodge + Parry + Miss + Block that has to equal 25%, it's just Block so that Block + Shield Block = 100% = No Crushing Blows.

Ironically, a naked warrior with talents has exactly 25% Dodge + Parry + Block.

Emeraude · 09/12/06, 6:16 PM

Your natural block does not have any effect on your chance to get Critically hit or Crushed, you can go to Hearthglenn and take on Highlord Taelan Fordring(63 mob) to test this. If you never shield block you get crushed roughly 15% of the time, crits still happen as well depending on your def.

The senario with natural avoidance 85% stopping crits/crushing is a moot point, because nobody has that type of avoidance.

If your natural block is below 25% and you shield block you will STILL avoid being crushed/crit while it's active because dodge/parry/miss take up the rest of the table.