candlegarden

Some times I feel like an item has a higher ilevel than another item just because it drops from a more difficult mob. Or let me put it this way, some upgrades are so minor (and some others might say it's actually a downgrade cause they value a stat a lot) that you can't bring yourself to spend dkp on them and if you decide to take it you might be screwing over someone who might have gotten more benefit from it.

Sorry I couldn't get to the point. My point is, while there might be very minor differences between two items their ilevel might very a lot. I guess everyone who has checked this issue a bit has found examples which was surprising. I have found many as well but here is one which is stands out:

Cloak of concentrated hatred

56 Armor
+11 Strength
+16 Agility
+15 Stamina
Equip: Improves your chance to hit by 1%.
ilevel 73

vs

Cloak of the Fallen God

66 Armor
+11 Strength
+26 Agility
+15 Stamina
ilevel 88

If you omit the 10 difference in armor (and the armor given by the more agi later), it's +1 to hit vs 10 agility. In other words it's roughly +1 hit vs .34 crit / .68 dodge / 10 atp. I won't go into what stat is worth more by how much (from rogue perspective) but how does one explain a difference of 15 ilevels between two items like this? Is it just bad itemization, like Hatred cloak is too good and actually over item budget or compared to it's ilevel Cloak of the Fallen God is sub par? If not what am I missing? :)

 

Vetinari

Because the more you stack of 1 particular stat, the more it costs, due to the ^1.5 thingy.

Blizz could sacrifice ~2 agility, and shove on 1% crit onto the cloak of the fallen god, while maintaining the same item level.

Anyway, I highly suggest you read the wowwiki entry on the itemization formulae, and use the search function on these forums. There are a LOT of threads about this already.

Clearly intellect is not your primary stat.

 

Mosh

I'd imagine Hunters with capped hit would be way more fond of the Fallen God. Not all DPS items are optimal for all DPS classes.

 

Northerner

In fact, almost every heavily-wieghted item is only ideal for a very few classes. CotFG is still a great item for 21/30 Hunters, a decent item for 5/31/15 Hunters and a soso item for Rogues and dpsWarriors compared to other options. Similar situations exist for all dps classes and often to healers and tanks as well.

I ignore mew/hiss and ROAR!/GROWLl! Druids in this intentionally.

 

Solid

There is no way the stat allocation justifies the weakness of CotFG, its waaaay poo for its level in comparison to CoCH imo. Even for a hunter, can you honestly say 20 ranegd AP and 0.2% crit over 1% hit constitutes the HUGE ivevel gap between the items? if anything they would be on par as far as utility value goes.

Solid - Night Elf Warrior of The Last Watch

 

Taeme

Are you saying it's underbudget as Drape of Benediction was? Because it's not, it works out how it does, it's simply a bad item.

you're the one that decided to trust me

 

farnsworth

Is there an addon that would staple the ilevel of items onto the tooltip with some calculation of HYZ values?

 

Solid

Nono, am sayign in real terms its an extremely poorly designed item on Blizzards behalf.

Solid - Night Elf Warrior of The Last Watch

 

darthgrimm

Maybe the fact that one is a quest reward that drops every weeke and the other is a "rare" drop from a boss can be counted on how good the item is.

Blizzard addmited that the epic quests for hunters/ priests were a mistake. They dont want to give a tooo good quest reward or everybody will be runing around with that one.

On the other hand.... /cry for the old Deathdealer Shoulders. Why did they had to take 10 sta when they could have just shaved a bit off the top of ecah stat.


Beeing a rogue myself i can tell you that The Cape of the Fallen God appeals more to other playstyles and Concentrated haterd to others. For example in a guild warriors tend to spend / value more Concentrated haterd than the Cape of the Fallen God while some alliance rogues will stack more on agility because of Kings.

 

Fizil

There probably are, but it wouldn't be automatic for new items, the mod author would have to have a database. ilevel is recorded in your local itemcache, which can't be accessed by the WoW scripting API.

And beleive me, we have asked for ilevel to be something accessible through ingame APIs, and have always been told no.

 

◊ Anias

It gets asked every 2 weeks or so on the interface forums. I wish slouken would sticky his "No there will never be ilvl in lua" post if he's going to stick to it =P.

Math is very easy, explaining math is quite difficult.

 

red

I get the impression that he's a programmer and not a designer. It's probably not up to him.

 

Mosh

Would an addon that simply calculated the ilvl based on the stats of the item also be impossible?

 

snape

From what I understand, there is no such conversion, just some good approximations. The ILVLs used by Blizzard are evidently not viewable unless you use an outside program or data-mine the info. Therefore, we have no real way of knowing (except for empirical formulas based on curve-fitting and the like) what the actual equations are.

IMO, it's quite possible Blizzard DOESN'T use a formula, but just makes up an approximate ILVL for each item. Or, they could use a formula that gives them a range of ILVL and just stamps the item with an ILVL within this range that makes sense.

 

◊ Kalman

You could calculate an expected ilvl, sure.

 

Kasonic

http://wow.tachyonsix.com/itemMaker/ is an extremely fun toy, although weapons just don't work on it.

Cloak of the Fallen God Redesigned in 5 Minutes By A Non-Hunter
67 Armor
16 Agility
15 Stamina
Equip: +28 Attack Power.
Equip: Increases your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.

 

snape

But as mentioned above, there's no reason to "expect" that the ILVL would match the one in-game, unless past history is enough of an indicator.

 

◊ Kalman

Based on past experience, it would be very close, +/- 1 or 2, typically. The values Hyzenthlei came up with are very good fits to the budget.

 

Elendril

the problem with cloak of the fallen god is that it's supposed to be the generic physical DPS reward from the c'thun quest item, so it's terribly schitzophrenic. the strength is flat out wasted on hunters, and suboptimal for rogues, and the agility is inefficient for warriors. the cloak tries to do too many things so it's medicore for all of them. the funny thing is it's still the best hunter cloak in the game until shroud of dominion because our other itemization is pretty terrible :-P

 

◊ Anias

Blizzard has real problems with focusing their design. Whenever Occam's Razor isn't staring over the shoulder of the designer working on random design x it seems that feature creep sneaks in. (See druids, wtf is our class supposed to be?, or items like the cloak =P)

Math is very easy, explaining math is quite difficult.

 

Charky

Yes. There are several things to consider. Look at Cloak of the Unseen Path compared to Cloak of Concentrated Hatred. There is a 6 ilvl difference in favor of CoCH, but their utility for a hunter is entirely a push. Ilvl is in no way a measure of actual utility.

Furthermore, lets look at the difference between Dragonstalker's Breastplate and Striker's Hauberk. There is a similar ilvl difference between these two items and CoCH and CotFG. You gain a whole 10 RAP in 12 ilvls, along with some other stats that have secondary raid utility.

Lastly, +hit does not have the same value for hunters as it does for melee classes, as it is rather easy to hit our cap. So 20 ap and 0.2% crit is a huge gain over 1% hit when the hit cap is already maxed out. However, if you are already at the hit cap, you're more likely to have Cloak of Shrouded Mists, which is almost as good as CotFG due to the +11 str. So in that sense, CotFG is inefficient for us too, but so is a majority of our itemization.

 

Copernicus

Until Burning Crusade hits, there won't be items with attack power and agility/strength. Except for a few legacy MC level stuff.

 

Antiarc

Weapons work well enough save ranged, and caster items don't work so well since I haven't hammered out the conversions for "sacrificed DPS" (that is, the weapon's DPS is low for its ilevel and they put more stats on it as a result than an item of that ilevel should be allowed). Melee works fine, but procs, of course (Perdition's, Thunderfury) can't be measured.

There's actually a good bit of it in-game, but it's almost all PVP rewards. There are the few legacy items, as you mentioned, but Blizzard seems to be rather fond of AP + AGI on their Arathi reward gear.

 

Boevis

Fallen God is amazing for Feral Druids (62 AP, 1.3% Crit).

Hunters that take the Eye make me sad considering one of the other rewards is the best healer neck in the game :(

 

Eudaimonia

I don't consider CotFG 'so-so' for warriors using 2h weapons; in fact I think it's the best cloak until SoD. Compared to the other realistic options:

Cloak of Firemaw - 50 AP
Cloak of Draconic Might - 32 AP, 0.8% crit
CoCH - 22 AP, 0.8% crit, 1% hit

CotFG comes out a clear winner for me, at 22AP, 1.3% crit. I also value raw stats highly due to BoK.

Of course, there's an argument that all 'serious' dps warriors dual-wield, but lets not open that can of worms ;)