I apologize if this has been discussed here, however a search didn't reveal anything more than mentions of the topic.

I'm curious to know when I should be using Eviscerate and/or Rupture in the 20/40-man pve environment. I'm a typical pve swordspec but feel free to address dagger theory as well.

I ran a full BWL for the first time on my rogue this weekend and found myself wondering what attacks I should be doing on bosses like Chromaggus that incorporate melee movement. I noticed that many ticks of SnD would go wasted during LoS phases, so I began using eviscerate for burst damage. I then remembered fundamental discussion regarding Rupture's disregard for armor and began using it instead of Eviscerate.

So what are the apects that I should be addressing while deciding which of these skills to use? Some of the variables I'm aware of (but remain unsure about how much water they hold) include:

-The fact that Sunder helps Eviscerate (thought I'm not sure if it's enough to make up)
-The fact that I've got Improved Eviscerate (though I've recently read posts that put the talent down)
-The fact that Rupture now scales with attack power, or so I hear.
-The fact that all mobs have varying original base armor (though I'm not sure if this needs to be considered)

Some remaining questions regarding similar variables include:

-Should Rupture only be used (assuming it's decided that it does more DPS than Eviscerate) on fights that require melee movement (Firemaw, Chromaggus, Sartura, etc), or should it be used during any/all stationary fights as well? I assume anyone who's done Patchwerk can share some stories.
-Is aggro worth addressing when deciding between the two skills? I'm yet to try the Twin Emps but hear that Rupture > Eviscerate in this regard.

I have similar questions regarding when to use Instant Poison vs. Deadly Poison, so feel free to address the two if similar theory applies.

Thanks for any insight.

It's rare that Rupture is a good choice for a standard 20/31 build in raiding - between Sunder, various Eviscerate modifiers (Aggression, Imp Evisc), and crit Evisc, Evisc is generally a better choice, even accounting the bonus damage done by the energy you save (although that closes the gap quite a bit). For hemo, the opposite is true - Rupture is generally the optimal choice.

Honestly, in the current 40 man environment, you probably should never use Rupture; debuff slots are hard to come by, and its likely to get bumped before delivering full damage potential, even if that potential is slightly greater.

The only time I ever use Eviscerate is if the mob has multiple armor removal debuffs (IE, no CoR or Faerie up), debuffs are precious (Hakkar and I regain control during lifedrain), or the enemy is within 18 seconds of dying. Other times Rupture is pretty much a sure bet for more damage unless you've got assholes spamming Moonfire.

Are you hemo?

Assuming the standard-ish 18/33 PvE combat swords build (trading 2 from Imp Evisc to WeapEx) with 1800 raid buffed AP and 33% raid buffed crit:

Rupture does 800 +.24*1800 = 1232 damage, consistently, plus 10 energy to spare Evis doesn't get (SS converts, at that level of stats, on the order of 20 DPE). Call it 1450 damage, all told.

Eviscerate9 does (958 + .15*1800)*(1.05)*(1.06)*(1.33) = 1817 damage, pre-armor.

1817*x = 1450
x = 0.798

I.E. if armor reduction is > 20%, Rupture wins out over Eviscerate. Otherwise, Eviscerate wins. Typically, after Sunder/FF/CoR are up, reduction is below 20%. For combat swords builds, Rupture doesn't match up. For combat daggers, you don't have spare CP anyway (and on the rare occasion you do, it'll cost you more damage than it's worth to use them on Rupt or Evis). So you're pretty much left with Hemo as the Rupture-using build, reinforced by the fact that Hemo builds will by definition boost Rupture by 30%.

You'll have 1 or 2 spare points at best, and at that level, the energy expended is almost certainly better spent on backstab - you're better off "wasting" the CP by refreshing SnD early or backstabbing again at 5 CP.

Well then, thanks for the tip!

dont use shitty skills to steal locks/shadow priests debuff slots
ty

The issue of debuff slot use has already been raised in this thread, making this post not only relatively contentless, but quite worthless. Troll elsewhere.

Our rogues seem to favor Rupture on Vek'nilash - presumably because you can't get all the armor reduction debuffs on him and it's a way of unloading your CP and having it continue doing dps while you're backing out and getting ready to swap sides.

Is this efficient skill utilization, or should I suggest they use Evisc instead?

With Vek'nilash the debuff limit is obviously a non-issue.

Been a long time since I've done Emps, so I don't recall what Vek's fully sundered armor reduction is like. Like I said: 20% is the magic breakpoint for combat swords. For combat daggers, Rupture probably pulls ahead earlier than 20% armor due to CD's higher DPE making the saved energy more significant and the lack of the evisc boosters.

I'm Combat Daggers.

My technique on Emps used to involve rupture, but my current plan just saves the CP's for a starting SnD prior to engagement. This way I have 100% SnD on my target (apart from the first 3-4 seconds where I build up)

My Emps looks like.

1) Target Vek, stand on stairs next to the Cosy Fire (tm) at 10 second warning move to engagement position
2) Run to 2nd position, hit AR, backstab, backstab, SnD, backstab, backstab...
3) At the 10 second warning I look at my energy. If I am going to get a BS in within by the 5 second mark, I'll wait for it, otherwise I hit SS and then start to run.
4) Run to the 1st position, as I'm running in about 1 second away, hit SnD, then just BS/BS/BS/BS (repeat ad-nauseum) - again, looking for the opportunity to either BS or SS in the last 5 seconds of engagement.

After the first initial burst, I've nearly always got 5 CP for SnD, occasionally 4, very occasionally 3 (UBS ftl). Every 4th transition I use my Jom Gobbar, but engage it well outside the contact zone so that I always use up the last 10 seconds of it on the target. The first 10 seconds is less important.

The AR + JG cycle is rather exciting to watch all the very big numbers splash up ;-)

Twins is yet another "heaven for dagger rogues" with a stationary target, 100% SnD ToT, no cleave and the UBS can be mitigated by using Evasion if you're an early joiner.