I apologize if this has been discussed here, however a search didn't reveal anything more than mentions of the topic.

I'm curious to know when I should be using Eviscerate and/or Rupture in the 20/40-man pve environment. I'm a typical pve swordspec but feel free to address dagger theory as well.

I ran a full BWL for the first time on my rogue this weekend and found myself wondering what attacks I should be doing on bosses like Chromaggus that incorporate melee movement. I noticed that many ticks of SnD would go wasted during LoS phases, so I began using eviscerate for burst damage. I then remembered fundamental discussion regarding Rupture's disregard for armor and began using it instead of Eviscerate.

So what are the apects that I should be addressing while deciding which of these skills to use? Some of the variables I'm aware of (but remain unsure about how much water they hold) include:

-The fact that Sunder helps Eviscerate (thought I'm not sure if it's enough to make up)
-The fact that I've got Improved Eviscerate (though I've recently read posts that put the talent down)
-The fact that Rupture now scales with attack power, or so I hear.
-The fact that all mobs have varying original base armor (though I'm not sure if this needs to be considered)

Some remaining questions regarding similar variables include:

-Should Rupture only be used (assuming it's decided that it does more DPS than Eviscerate) on fights that require melee movement (Firemaw, Chromaggus, Sartura, etc), or should it be used during any/all stationary fights as well? I assume anyone who's done Patchwerk can share some stories.
-Is aggro worth addressing when deciding between the two skills? I'm yet to try the Twin Emps but hear that Rupture > Eviscerate in this regard.

I have similar questions regarding when to use Instant Poison vs. Deadly Poison, so feel free to address the two if similar theory applies.

Thanks for any insight.

The biggest differences between the two is Evis is burst and affected by armor, and rupture is over time and unaffected by armor, but each Rupture uses a debuff slot.
Both abilities are affected by AP, and generally Rupture will do more dps.

When to use one over the other you have to answer the question, are there debuff slots open? If not, then rupture will get knocked off and it will do less dps than Evis.

You generally want to make sure you have Slice up (unless you are doing Chromaggus) always, then use Evis or rupture if you can.

The same issue is between Deadly vs Instant, generally you want to use instant b/c it doesn't use a debuff slot. Also Deadly stacks to 5 and stops, so only one Rogue can get a good use out of it.

It's rare that Rupture is a good choice for a standard 20/31 build in raiding - between Sunder, various Eviscerate modifiers (Aggression, Imp Evisc), and crit Evisc, Evisc is generally a better choice, even accounting the bonus damage done by the energy you save (although that closes the gap quite a bit). For hemo, the opposite is true - Rupture is generally the optimal choice.

Honestly, in the current 40 man environment, you probably should never use Rupture; debuff slots are hard to come by, and its likely to get bumped before delivering full damage potential, even if that potential is slightly greater.

The only time I ever use Eviscerate is if the mob has multiple armor removal debuffs (IE, no CoR or Faerie up), debuffs are precious (Hakkar and I regain control during lifedrain), or the enemy is within 18 seconds of dying. Other times Rupture is pretty much a sure bet for more damage unless you've got assholes spamming Moonfire.

Are you hemo?

Assuming the standard-ish 18/33 PvE combat swords build (trading 2 from Imp Evisc to WeapEx) with 1800 raid buffed AP and 33% raid buffed crit:

Rupture does 800 +.24*1800 = 1232 damage, consistently, plus 10 energy to spare Evis doesn't get (SS converts, at that level of stats, on the order of 20 DPE). Call it 1450 damage, all told.

Eviscerate9 does (958 + .15*1800)*(1.05)*(1.06)*(1.33) = 1817 damage, pre-armor.

1817*x = 1450
x = 0.798

I.E. if armor reduction is > 20%, Rupture wins out over Eviscerate. Otherwise, Eviscerate wins. Typically, after Sunder/FF/CoR are up, reduction is below 20%. For combat swords builds, Rupture doesn't match up. For combat daggers, you don't have spare CP anyway (and on the rare occasion you do, it'll cost you more damage than it's worth to use them on Rupt or Evis). So you're pretty much left with Hemo as the Rupture-using build, reinforced by the fact that Hemo builds will by definition boost Rupture by 30%.

Combat daggers, no rank 9, so any spare points are generally used on Rupture.

Well then, thanks for the tip!

dont use shitty skills to steal locks/shadow priests debuff slots
ty

Don't let shitty classes pretend they can DPS? Don't bring shitty classes to raids? Get out of the thread if you don't want to contribute something useful - talented Rupture is on par with lock DoTs for DPS.

Besides, in the context of 20 mans or TBC, it's a lot more interesting of a question. Slot usage limitations are a lot less of a question when you have 20 people, or 25 people and 40 slots. In those cases, combat specs still won't be Rupturing (well... given current specs, who the hell knows what we'll be doing in context of TBC specs) but hemo specs most definitely should.

The issue of debuff slot use has already been raised in this thread, making this post not only relatively contentless, but quite worthless. Troll elsewhere.

Our rogues seem to favor Rupture on Vek'nilash - presumably because you can't get all the armor reduction debuffs on him and it's a way of unloading your CP and having it continue doing dps while you're backing out and getting ready to swap sides.

Is this efficient skill utilization, or should I suggest they use Evisc instead?

With Vek'nilash the debuff limit is obviously a non-issue.

Not at all a mathed out answer, but as a combat dag rogue, for in-and-out type fights like chrom and emps where I use a small snd and spend the other cps on evisc or rupture, I prefer to use rupture. Not sure how it stacks up in terms of damage/cp, but the lower energy cost makes it easier for me to push the envelope and get that last backstab in before I get off a rupture and I scramble to duck out of los or run across the room, especially if they dodge and I need to try again.

That's just for special fights like emps and chrom though. Any static boss is pure snd. If I have time left over, the extra energy goes for an extra bs.

I'm Combat Daggers.

My technique on Emps used to involve rupture, but my current plan just saves the CP's for a starting SnD prior to engagement. This way I have 100% SnD on my target (apart from the first 3-4 seconds where I build up)

My Emps looks like.

1) Target Vek, stand on stairs next to the Cosy Fire (tm) at 10 second warning move to engagement position
2) Run to 2nd position, hit AR, backstab, backstab, SnD, backstab, backstab...
3) At the 10 second warning I look at my energy. If I am going to get a BS in within by the 5 second mark, I'll wait for it, otherwise I hit SS and then start to run.
4) Run to the 1st position, as I'm running in about 1 second away, hit SnD, then just BS/BS/BS/BS (repeat ad-nauseum) - again, looking for the opportunity to either BS or SS in the last 5 seconds of engagement.

After the first initial burst, I've nearly always got 5 CP for SnD, occasionally 4, very occasionally 3 (UBS ftl). Every 4th transition I use my Jom Gobbar, but engage it well outside the contact zone so that I always use up the last 10 seconds of it on the target. The first 10 seconds is less important.

The AR + JG cycle is rather exciting to watch all the very big numbers splash up ;-)

Twins is yet another "heaven for dagger rogues" with a stationary target, 100% SnD ToT, no cleave and the UBS can be mitigated by using Evasion if you're an early joiner.

rupture on garr. dont worry about debuff slots, i would rather have rupture take a spot than serpent sting or siphon life. both weak as shit DoTs curtosey of moron hunters and warlocks.

Did i lose my way and somehow stumble into the WoW forums?

I think people are talking about raiding where use of debuff slots should be optimal, and where they need to worry about their dps, rather than PUG mc I'm afraid. If you have serpent stings and siphon life on the mob, then you need to have a stern word with your hunters and warlocks.

I am sorry for my post not being constructive
and i really feel sorry for u that u havent saw warlocks doing dmg - yes we suck at single target dps but pls dont make conclusions over u'r obviosly limited experiance

why dont u look at the eviscerate VS rupture from dotters point of view - dont u think the raid will do more dmg generally when u simply evi and leave other classes do dmg with their skill that cant avoid dots
how much is the difference between evi and rupture(considering rupture will do more dmg) - 10%,20% 50% - dont u think that other class can do more dmg than the difference between evi/rupture using the debuff slot u have taken

The great irony of this is that the one time when you're trying to use the English language with the tiniest semblence of correctness, you're still wrong.

"u'r" is presumably a form of "you're," which means "you are," and is not the possessive second person singular (or plural!) pronoun.

I'm sure if you'd have known how true that statement would turn out to be, you'd have put a bit more effort into it before hitting the 'submit' button

Using this value of rupture then it is 1232/16 = 77 dps
My corruption in a raid setting usually does 1800 damage over 18 seconds which is 100 dps. You have a viable alternative to rupture which isn't that much more damage than eviscerate even on higher armor targets. So either I use corruption and gain that 100 dps dot while you lose only a small amount of damage.

Using 3 out of 3 serrated blades then 77*1.3= 100.1 dps. However since we are talking raid setting you are at least 18 subtlety so your damage is already less than a more combat/assassination focused rogue.

Looking at the raid you can have
100 dps rupture no lock dot, raid dps = 100
100 dps lock dot + 50 dps eviscerate(being generous to how much better rupture is), raid dps = 150
The better option for raid dps is the second.

In actual practise rupture would just add more competition to the dot slots which fill up with deep wounds, fireball, ignite, corruption, immolate. Adding yet another dot to compete and not last full duration is not optimal.

One of the smart rogues in my previous guild said use rupture, so I switched to rupture. It was a day/night damage increase. The typical rogue starts life wanting to build up 5 CPs, and spend them, and then repeat the cycle. As I was taught, this is hardly optimal. Moving to the OP's question (and reinforcing what others have said) the general rule of thumb I've gone by is:

A) Is Slice and Dice up? If not, do either a short one to get it started so you have SnD up, or a long one because you just did the short one. Bonus points for watching your ticks to optimize when you actually do spend it (is SND still up and you have 40 energy? Wait a tick. SND falls and you're at 80 energy.. fresh SND for 30 seconds with 40 energy instead of 0? Sweet ~)

B) Can I fit in a debuff slot? Will the mob live until Rupture finishes? Unlike mister Spongebob Bannedpants above ignored, this is an important consideration that good rogues already consider. Rogues can forgo rupture, Warlocks really can't forgo corruption. However, situations like Chromaggus and Vek there are large periods (in the latter's case, this is known as "the entire fight") where their debuff bars may clear out - so why not?

C) I have CP and the A and B are covered: Eviserate.

*Talented* Rupture is 30% greater, not to mention the fact that a rogue with 1800 AP will likely have ~2000 if they're hemo specced. This pushes it over 100 DPS, and provides a significant gain vs. evis, not to mention the fact that it's 10 energy cheaper (pushing the total damage yielded b/c of DPE conversion closer to 1500). I've more than explained in other threads how a 21/0/30 rogue, given the right gear, can be competitive with combat DPS after the 1.12 changes.

Like I said in my very first post: "Honestly, in the current 40 man environment, you probably should never use Rupture; debuff slots are hard to come by, and its likely to get bumped before delivering full damage potential, even if that potential is slightly greater."

Finally, have you considered that you're not actually getting the full damage from Corruption? When you cast it, you're losing time (1.5-3s depending on talents) that you could have spent Shadowbolting, so the marginal damage increase for Corruption using a slot isn't as high as you think it is.

Right now, in 40 mans? Rupture's usually a bad idea. In TBC, or in non-raid instances (and even to some extent in 20 mans), Rupture is sometimes a viable choice, and I've outlined where it's viable.

Thanks for all the in-depth explanations. It's lots of information to take in so I'll hold major questions for another time.

Quickly though, how does one know when the "magic number of 20% armor reduction" is met? And Kalman, in an earlier post you said that rupture wins when armor reduction is > 20%. Wouldn't it be that *eviscerate* would win in this situation seeing that it's the one looking for less interfering armor?