Rupture vs Eviscerate - which and when to use? - Page 3

Bibdy · 09/14/06, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vykromond

Bibdy, your point only applies if Rupture and Corruption are mutually exclusive, and they are not always thus.

The entire point of the argument is that the Rupture might bump off the Corruption. We're comparing the DPS boost that the Rogue would get by using Rupture (over Eviscerate), to the DPS loss the Warlock would get by using Shadowbolt (over Corruption).

Kalman · 09/14/06, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Originally Posted by Kalman

From the perspective of overall raid DPS, during that 30 second period, there's no difference between a Rup/Corr combo and a Corr/Corr combo.

Except that the Rogue could have used Evis and the Warlock could have used Corruption again and neither are mutually exclusive.

The damage a warlock gains over 18s from using Corruption rather than Shadowbolt is almost exactly the same as the damage that a *hemo* rogue loses over that timeframe. Thus, assuming only one slot is available, Rup/SB/Corr vs. Evi/Corr/Corr is the same total damage.

Kalman · 09/14/06, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kasi

Kalman you should also take into account warlocks sustainability. Yes a rogue can constantly keep that damage up indefinately, but dots are by far the most efficient warlock spells. So a good question for warlocks here is how does a dps cycle with dots compared to a dps cycle of shadowbolt spam do for both DPS and DPM.

Corr7: 340 mana, non-reduceable. For our hypothetical 30/0/21, +600, 20% lock, this is 1564 damage. 4.6 DPM.
SB10: 380 mana, reduced by Cataclysm and Doomcaller 5/5. Hypothetical 30/0/21, +600, 20% lock, this is 1352 damage. 3.55 DPM.

There's next to no difference in sustainability between the two in practice, especially since the assumption was made that you're only losing 1.5s of Shadowbolt to cast a Corruption: Corr/SB actually winds up being a higher mana burn cycle than SB spam, at a gain of some DPS (I haven't and won't compute DPM differences). Corr/SB/SB/SB/SB/SB/SB/SB vs. 7.2xSB (18s of Shadowbolt spam), mana burn is 166 MPS vs. 152 MPS for the SB spam equivalent.

Everyone says "Well, you could always Eviscerate instead" without stopping to consider that the warlock could always Shadowbolt instead. Incidentally, if the lock doesn't have a <1.5s Corruption, their slot gain is even lower (unless they somehow wound up *not* picking up Bane, which would tilt it back towards DoTing).

Bibdy · 09/14/06, 3:31 PM

A Rogue's Eviscerate will hit harder than 1 shadowbolt.

p.s. Plus you can safely assume the Warlock WILL keep trying to throw Corruption on there, since AGAIN, we RELY on it for better DPS and mana efficiency than just Shadowbolt spam. The rate of mana consumption be damned, mana efficiency is more important...

Fres · 09/14/06, 3:42 PM

Nightfall?

Bibdy · 09/14/06, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Fres

Nightfall?

That's a pretty big IF and over long durations it equates to a pitiful DPS boost. Its just a fun toy.

Kalman · 09/14/06, 3:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

A Rogue's Eviscerate will hit harder than 1 shadowbolt.

Expected value for 2k AP 5 CP R9 Eviscerate, 30% crit rate, 3/3 Imp Evisc (typical 21/0/30 setup):

((904+1012)/2 + .15*2000)*1.15*1.3 = 1880. Assuming 20% armor, our expected output becomes 1504 damage.

Expected value for 600 +damage 20% crit R10 Shadowbolt (30/0/21 build):

((510) + 600*3/3.5)*1.1*1.2 = 1352. Assumes lock has enough +hit for resist to be negligible factor.

Value for 2k AP 5 CP Rupture, 3/3 Serrated (21/0/30):

(800 + .24*2000)*1.3 = 1664 damage, plus 10 energy over Eviscerate (which converts into ~200 more damage above and beyond). Treated as 1864.

Value for Corruption:

1.1*(822 + 600) = 1564 damage.

1.5/2.5*SB+Corr+Rup = 1564 + 1864 + .6*1352 = 4239
Corr+Corr+Evi = 1564 + 1564 + 1504 = 4632

Answer 1: At 20% armor, Corr/Corr/Ev beats out SB/Corr/Rup by 400 damage (~11 DPS)

Question: At what armor reduction does SB/Corr/Rup start winning?

1564 + 1564 + 1880*ar = 4239
1880*ar = 1111
ar = 0.59

41% armor reduction.

Conclusion: If debuff slots are limited, SM/Ruin locks should get priority, having the highest slot gain. However, Rupture compares quite favorably.

Conclusion 2: God, lock DPS is poor.

Kalman · 09/14/06, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

A Rogue's Eviscerate will hit harder than 1 shadowbolt.

p.s. Plus you can safely assume the Warlock WILL keep trying to throw Corruption on there, since AGAIN, we RELY on it for better DPS and mana efficiency than just Shadowbolt spam. The rate of mana consumption be damned, mana efficiency is more important...

From the individual perspective, absolutely. Of course, you're ignoring the fact that from the individual perspective, our rogue SHOULD be using Rupture rather than Eviscerate. From the raid perspective, the lower mana efficiency doesn't matter as long as your total mana consumption is lower or equal and raid DPS is equal or greater.

Ra · 09/14/06, 3:50 PM

It doesn't take much to determine the average damage reduction on mobs. In whatever instance your in just take the time in one run to make note if all the standard armor reducing debuffs are on and kick the mob. Kick is a flat 75 damage (god help me if I'm wrong on this number but thats besides the point). Just look at the actual value your kick hit for.

1 - Damage/75*100 will be your percent reduction.

ex. You kick XXX for 70 damage.

100 - 70/75*100 = 6.666~% damage reduction.

Bibdy · 09/14/06, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Question: At what armor reduction does SB/Corr/Rup start winning?

1564 + 1564 + 1880*ar = 4239
1880*ar = 1111
ar = 0.59

41% armor reduction.

Which is about the same number I quoted you earlier. That's a F*CKTON of armour reduction required for you to get the same DPS boost from Rupture as we'd get from Corruption, to the point where trying to justify taking a debuff slot over another class, is good old-fashioned insanity.

Lousifer · 09/14/06, 4:30 PM

Please dude, let it be. The horse is very, very dead. We all agree that debuff slots are limited.

Interesting math here. My class leader was always trying to call for rupture rather than evis over the concept that a DOT is better than doing all the damage at once because of threat, which I've always discarded as silly (That's why I have Vanish after all), but it's nice to see that it would occasionally make sense to Rupture instead of Evis.

Kalman · 09/14/06, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Originally Posted by Kalman

Question: At what armor reduction does SB/Corr/Rup start winning?

1564 + 1564 + 1880*ar = 4239
1880*ar = 1111
ar = 0.59

41% armor reduction.

Which is about the same number I quoted you earlier. That's a F*CKTON of armour reduction required for you to get the same DPS boost from Rupture as we'd get from Corruption, to the point where trying to justify taking a debuff slot over another class, is good old-fashioned insanity.

The net raid DPS loss from rogues rupturing vs. warlocks Corruption is minimal (approximately 10 DPS given the above stats/specs, less in some cases), assuming the rogue is of a spec that *should* Rupture, which is relatively rare. Not to mention the minimal DPS loss is probably made up for by a reduction in lifetap requirement and therefore healing burden. Corr cycle requires ~10% more lifetap time and 10% more mana burn, after all - any warlocks care to estimate how much of their time they spend tapping w/ the 1.12 changes?

Warlocks don't have a god-given right to debuff slots, is the point. Nobody cares what your damage is - if my using a debuff slot will push raid DPS higher, then you need to suck it up and accept that your class design is flawed.

If you didn't spec instant Corruption, the DPS loss is even narrower. If you have 5/5 DC or Cataclysm, mana makes it even more favorable for you to SB rather than Corruption, leaving the slot open for a Rupture.

(BTW, given that druid Rip is better than Rupture, in no circumstances should a warlock ever complain about having their DoTs knocked off by feral druids.)