TBC Lore Concerns - Page 2

Dakous · 09/13/06, 10:41 PM

Blood Elf search party to outlands finds Kael, discovers that their savior (their dying civilization was revitalized by his messenger sending word that Things will be better Real Soon Now) is a false messiah. They encourage him to have an "accident", misplace the body, and maintain the hope... in his name.

Check the Dune series of books and the sinister turn a similar situation takes with Alia. "Sorry, the prophet's message is incongruous with my political needs, time for him to never be found..."

EDIT:

That's entirely just a supposition on my part, sorry if it's written as if I have any inside information - I don't.

Jeht · 09/13/06, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Well what would you do if for a long time you'd been hoping to reunite with your Prince, but found out he had allied himself with the devil and basically gone mad? Heck, who knows if we'll even be killing Kael.

What I DON'T like is how former 'heroes' like Kel'thuzad, Vashj and Illidan are being put on 'farm status'. Its kind of insulting to the role they played in the game's storyline. Either they allow us to kill them, and they become a footnote in the story of the game and players feel as though they are affecting the storyline itself, or we get them to 1%, they flee and come back to haunt us in a later expansion or something (e.g. what they've done with Kel'Thuzad and that phylactory) and we feel that our efforts at trying to affect the gameworld are meaningless.

Either way, it kinda sucks.

I mean, they die in WoW, they die in Warcraft IV, they die in Warcraft Adventures, they die in Warcraft: Blademaster... what's the difference?

Like, I see where your coming from, with the nature of MMO games sort of de-emphasizing the importance of the metastory, what with these guys "dying" only to pop right back to life on Tuesday morning, but the metastory is still there. When WoW 2 comes out, Rend will be dead, killed by a band of intrepid adventurers. And until then, he supplies us with high quality itemry!

Beliandra · 09/13/06, 11:40 PM

Lore is died?

Emeraude · 09/13/06, 11:46 PM

We will not kill Illidan, or Arthas! Ever!

*Swoon's @ Illidan/Arthas posters*

TheCrunkOne · 09/13/06, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jeht

I mean, they die in WoW, they die in Warcraft IV, they die in Warcraft Adventures, they die in Warcraft: Blademaster... what's the difference?

Like, I see where your coming from, with the nature of MMO games sort of de-emphasizing the importance of the metastory, what with these guys "dying" only to pop right back to life on Tuesday morning, but the metastory is still there. When WoW 2 comes out, Rend will be dead, killed by a band of intrepid adventurers. And until then, he supplies us with high quality itemry!

Yeah, I like this guy's point, I just personally hope Arthas goes down in Warcraft 4 :D
Why farm for months when you can be ready in 20-30 minutes of micro-managemnt?

Jedah · 09/14/06, 12:11 AM

One of my favorite parts of playing FFXI is that while you were off grinding yourself to death on the same crab/bug model for 2 months, there was an ongoing story that you took part in, and that it progressed fully aware of what you had done before. The pieces are there for a coherent narrative spanning possibly most of the instances in the current game, all they need is Thrall telling you "we are forever in your debt druid, but in his madness, Nefarus gloated of a darker evil to come in southern-most wastes than perhaps even the Silithids we faced in the war..." Of course everyone knows that the guy right beside them talking to Thrall is getting the same song and dance about how they were the saviors of Kalimdor in instance Raid ID: 22033, but I think the chance to construct a flowing story exists, and would probobly make the death of storyline characters more palatable; I for one would hate to load up Warcraft 4 and find out that for the passed 3-4 years I've been playing WoW, nothing happened; I'd rather hear how hero's banded together to defeat the hold over villains from Warcraft 3, and how in the process they discovered something else to swing swords at.

Vhex · 09/14/06, 12:48 AM

With EQ/EQ2, they've said pretty much that "unless we've killed them off in a story, it doesn't count." I believe WoW has the same mantra. IE: If they really want Onyxia/Nefarian to make a showing whenever we get around to Grim Batol, that's their perogative. Hell, if they ever want to expand on Arugal he's not officially dead either yet.

Cordelia · 09/14/06, 1:01 AM

My guess is Kael'thas is insane now... and all of his blood elves are now Crack Elves. (Can't find the picture of the crack elf >.>)

Emeraude · 09/14/06, 1:21 AM

Originally Posted by Vhex

With EQ/EQ2, they've said pretty much that "unless we've killed them off in a story, it doesn't count." I believe WoW has the same mantra. IE: If they really want Onyxia/Nefarian to make a showing whenever we get around to Grim Batol, that's their perogative. Hell, if they ever want to expand on Arugal he's not officially dead either yet.

Unless you look at it from the view of progression.

You can't form the Sceptor and open the gates unless Vael dies, Nefarian dies, the Battle of Moonglade happens, the recovery of the Draconics for Dummies happens, etc.

Stuff like Arugal and other older dungeons would make sense, because you actually see the same senario happen with Highlord Morgraine if/when somebody gets the Ashbringer and goes back to SM.

Just trying to figure out which is part of the story and which is optional.

Vhex · 09/14/06, 1:36 AM

Those don't count. Unless it's part of official canon that "Soandso defeated Nefarian" it doesn't count. I know it doesn't make sense half the time, or any of the time really...but well... /shrug

Steelfleece · 09/14/06, 2:04 AM

Originally Posted by Vhex

Those don't count. Unless it's part of official canon that "Soandso defeated Nefarian" it doesn't count. I know it doesn't make sense half the time, or any of the time really...but well... /shrug

But there's a fricken QUEST to turn in Onyxia's head once she's slain. If that's not lore, I don't know what is.

Incoherence · 09/14/06, 2:32 AM

There are two somewhat related problems here.

The obvious problem is that usually when you kill things they stay dead. In the context of a MMOG they can't really, except in a few rare situations, because it allows Blizzard to reuse content, and because it makes even less sense for one dead dragon to outfit an entire raid. If I kill a dragon that no one else gets a shot at, I want more than just 5 shiny things for a group of 40, unless there are a lot of dragons running around.

The lore issue can be resolved by simply ignoring everything that doesn't correspond to a quest that you yourself complete. What is canon is the set of actions, as given by quests, that you yourself complete. All the other people turning in Onyxia's head... ehh, not important; it's part of the suspension of disbelief, as it were, that's implied in playing a game like this. Notice that up until Kel'thuzad we haven't killed anyone of consequence to Warcraft 1-3 lore, and they left themselves an out with Kel'thuzad. So the backstory to Warcraft 4, should it happen, will simply talk about skirmishes which repelled Scourge and Burning Legion assaults, and maybe some mention of other events, especially if the story is leading up to some larger force behind all the random things getting corrupted, like (ignore the lore complications this implies) Sargeras.

Vhex · 09/14/06, 2:36 AM

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Originally Posted by Vhex

Those don't count. Unless it's part of official canon that "Soandso defeated Nefarian" it doesn't count. I know it doesn't make sense half the time, or any of the time really...but well... /shrug

But there's a fricken QUEST to turn in Onyxia's head once she's slain. If that's not lore, I don't know what is.

There's also a quest to kill Khan Jehn, which I've done, yet I'm sitting here on my hunter twink staring at the dude. Short of Metzen or his crazy evil twin that keeps coming up with this delicious lore coming out and saying, "Y'know what, the mighty hunter 'Shooturface' clearly valiently slew this leader of the centaur clan, he no longer exists."

Since the ringing of the AQ40 gong is currently the only quest that isn't repeatable, that's the only event I can think of that is now official canon. However, the fact that gamers had to slay Nefarian to accomplish this is meaningless. Afterall, in order to start the quest series we had to slay Broodlord, which required killing Vael...which was required again to start the red shard series.

Ah continuity, what a cruel bastard you can be.

Steelfleece · 09/14/06, 2:42 AM

Originally Posted by Vhex

Originally Posted by Steelfleece

Originally Posted by Vhex

Those don't count. Unless it's part of official canon that "Soandso defeated Nefarian" it doesn't count. I know it doesn't make sense half the time, or any of the time really...but well... /shrug

But there's a fricken QUEST to turn in Onyxia's head once she's slain. If that's not lore, I don't know what is.

There's also a quest to kill Khan Jehn, which I've done, yet I'm sitting here on my hunter twink staring at the dude. Short of Metzen or his crazy evil twin that keeps coming up with this delicious lore coming out and saying, "Y'know what, the mighty hunter 'Shooturface' clearly valiently slew this leader of the centaur clan, he no longer exists."

Since the ringing of the AQ40 gong is currently the only quest that isn't repeatable, that's the only event I can think of that is now official canon. However, the fact that gamers had to slay Nefarian to accomplish this is meaningless. Afterall, in order to start the quest series we had to slay Broodlord, which required killing Vael...which was required again to start the red shard series.

Ah continuity, what a cruel bastard you can be.

Technically, the AQ quest opening could've been completed by multiple people--there were servers with multiple Scepters of the Shifting Sands(one of a kind items) completed.

That kind of thing comes with the territory. After all, one day there will be five people standing in Orgrimmar with Might of Menethil, which is the mace Arthas discarded when he took up Frostmourne. Or multiple Atieshs. Just because they can happen multiple times doesn't have to mean they aren't canon.

Dakous · 09/14/06, 3:52 AM

In the alternative, a death to proper names in WoW. You didn't kill Onyxia, you just killed the latest Black Broodmother. You didn't kill Khan Dezpath, you killed Khan of the Kolkar Tribe.

That would have exciting lore repercussions.

Thrall: "Oh boy, you slew the latest in a string of Broodmothers. I guess I can give you this trinket, but you know, there's like ten gabillion others, so you really haven't helped me all that much. Also, noone cares, because like I said, ten gabillion others. Overlord Saurfang is going to laugh at you if you try and get him to yell about this. Next it'll be orphans demanding recognition for shoe tying."

So there are two separate issues: internal WoW lore, which really has to be this way to even be able to fake excitement, and external Warcraft lore (Warcraft 3->WoW->A supposed Warcraft 4).

As it's not unreasonable to suppose War4 will be developed by Blizzard, and be "20 years later" or in some shape or form occluded from the daily dealings of WoW ("After a tumultuous 10 years where a new Age of Legends rallied forth legions of heroes whose epic feats were too numerous to recount, war stirs again. The Alliance and the Horde mash each others faces in.. again!! Yarr!"). Also, Warcraft lore has a huge timeline to work with. They can just as easily pop forward a thousand years, have some cataclysm on Azeroth, and blank slate forward. Or pop back ten thousand years: Warcraft 4: Trolls and Nerubians!