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09/14/06, 7:26 PM
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#1
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<Druid Trainer>
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I don't have time for much description, at the moment.
http://www.sigilguild.net/hamlet/Mage.xls
The first iteration is here; you can probably extrapolate most of what's going on.
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6825
All this business about "cycles" is elucidated (maybe) here (post 14):
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7732
and here:
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7742
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It's not at all polished or user-friendly.
Basically, you edit anything that's shaded on the first page. There are two parallel columns for you to run a comparison.
Cycles are "casting modes," described by what you do on a Clearcast or non-Clearcast. The one thing I'm currently missing is a way to automatically choose which two cycles (read my links; it's always two) are best for a given fight. So you can input, for each setup, four pairs of cycles, for which it will automatically choose the best. You have to look at pages 2 and 3 to see what the cycle numbers mean, in terms of spells.
A good way to determine your effective casting delay:
See how many Polymorphs you can chaincast on a critter in one minute.
Casting lag = (60 - 1.5*N)/N
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Not modelled:
Cooldowns.
Rolling Ignites.
Cycles in which you use Fireblast every cooldown.
8/8 NW.
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09/15/06, 9:07 AM
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#2
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<Druid Trainer>
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Its best use is to compute equal-DPS contours of various stats at your current level of gear. For example, for me, at Patchwerk-length fight, roughly:
1 crit = 1.3 hit = 15 Fire dmg = 11 MP5 = 20 Spi = 28 Int
A point in Arcane Med is worth about as much as a point in Master of Elements, which are both worth about half as much as a point in Elem. Precision. The most important point-for-point talents is Ignite, followed by Fire Power and Imp. Fireball, although it's hard to evaluate Imp. Scorch. Most points in raid Fire are pretty clear-cut.
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09/15/06, 10:07 AM
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#3
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
A point in Arcane Med is worth about as much as a point in Master of Elements.
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The truth or falsehood of this statement lies entirely on your crit rate and your spirit value. When I did the Math for my admittedly max-out-damage build, a point in MoE is worth about 1.5 times a point in Arcane Med (for fireball).
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09/15/06, 10:16 AM
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#4
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
11 MP5 = 20 Spi
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I also don't see how you could possibly make this statement, unless your Patchwerk attempt are 4 minutes and 39 seconds long and you have 3/3 Arcane Med.
Only under those conditions would the above be equal - if you had anything less then 3/3 Arcane Med and if the fight takes longer than 4:39, 11 mp5 completely dwarfs 20 spirit in practice.
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09/15/06, 10:18 AM
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#5
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Protector
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
No WoW Account
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Depending on current gear, talent's power will change for folks, that is the point of creating a spreadsheet.
Yes, if you had more crit than Arawthion has then MoE should be better than Arcane Med, but would it be the same for another Mage? I don't know, that is why spreadsheets are around.
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09/15/06, 10:34 AM
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#6
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by snape
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
11 MP5 = 20 Spi
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I also don't see how you could possibly make this statement, unless your Patchwerk attempt are 4 minutes and 39 seconds long and you have 3/3 Arcane Med.
Only under those conditions would the above be equal - if you had anything less then 3/3 Arcane Med and if the fight takes longer than 4:39, 11 mp5 completely dwarfs 20 spirit in practice.
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Are you remembering the effect of Spirit on the size of your Evocation?
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09/15/06, 10:40 AM
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#7
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
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Originally Posted by snape
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
11 MP5 = 20 Spi
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I also don't see how you could possibly make this statement, unless your Patchwerk attempt are 4 minutes and 39 seconds long and you have 3/3 Arcane Med.
Only under those conditions would the above be equal - if you had anything less then 3/3 Arcane Med and if the fight takes longer than 4:39, 11 mp5 completely dwarfs 20 spirit in practice.
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Are you remembering the effect of Spirit on the size of your Evocation?
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I most certainly do - and included it in my calculation; thanks for noticing.
20 spirit / 4 = 5 mana per tick x 1500% evocation = 75 mana per tick x 4 ticks = 300 mana added to your Evocation.
I have a Soulkeeper and a wand "of Spirit" to switch out with ItemRack on an Evocation event.
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09/15/06, 11:06 AM
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#8
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by snape
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
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Originally Posted by snape
I also don't see how you could possibly make this statement, unless your Patchwerk attempt are 4 minutes and 39 seconds long and you have 3/3 Arcane Med.
Only under those conditions would the above be equal - if you had anything less then 3/3 Arcane Med and if the fight takes longer than 4:39, 11 mp5 completely dwarfs 20 spirit in practice.
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Are you remembering the effect of Spirit on the size of your Evocation?
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I most certainly do - and included it in my calculation; thanks for noticing.
20 spirit / 4 = 5 mana per tick x 1500% evocation = 75 mana per tick x 4 ticks = 300 mana added to your Evocation.
I have a Soulkeeper and a wand "of Spirit" to switch out with ItemRack on an Evocation event.
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I'll check for bugs--to be honest, that did catch my attention. If you've paid any attention to the inner workings, feel free to check yourself.
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09/15/06, 11:24 AM
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#9
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Great Tiger
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Nah, I did my own basic calculation, you can check the code I suppose. Here it is:
Claim: On a fight of Patchwerk duration - 20 spirit = 11 mp5
Argument: Let's compare. As said previously, 20 spirit = 300 mana added onto your Evocation (using the math there). In Patchwerk, you're chaincasting pretty much all the time, so you'll be inside 5 seconds almost always. Therefore, you get 20 / 4 = 5 x 0.3 = 1.5 more mana every 2 seconds. This is 3.75 mp5. (I'll run this calculation again later assuming full Arcane Med).
So, so far we have 300 + 3.75x (where x is the number of 5 second periods). Setting this equal to 11x (which is 11 mp5 times the number of 5 second periods), we get x = 41.38 5 second periods = 207 second fight, or 3 minutes 27 seconds (clearly, Patchwerk takes much longer than this even in the best case).
So, I thought, OK, let's assume he has full Arcane Med. All that does is change the 0.3 above to a 0.45, and we recalculate. We get 55.81 5 second periods = 279 second fight, or 4 minutes 39 seconds (Patchwerk still is much longer than that).
So something is wrong with the calculation if that is the result you get for a 6 minute fight, which I would say is close to the lower bound possible for Patchwerk - I suppose with full Naxx gear you could get down to 5:15 or 5:30, but I don't think 4:39 is really feasible.
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09/15/06, 11:39 AM
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#10
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by snape
Nah, I did my own basic calculation, you can check the code I suppose. Here it is:
Claim: On a fight of Patchwerk duration - 20 spirit = 11 mp5
Argument: Let's compare. As said previously, 20 spirit = 300 mana added onto your Evocation (using the math there). In Patchwerk, you're chaincasting pretty much all the time, so you'll be inside 5 seconds almost always. Therefore, you get 20 / 4 = 5 x 0.3 = 1.5 more mana every 2 seconds. This is 3.75 mp5. (I'll run this calculation again later assuming full Arcane Med).
So, so far we have 300 + 3.75x (where x is the number of 5 second periods). Setting this equal to 11x (which is 11 mp5 times the number of 5 second periods), we get x = 41.38 5 second periods = 207 second fight, or 3 minutes 27 seconds (clearly, Patchwerk takes much longer than this even in the best case).
So, I thought, OK, let's assume he has full Arcane Med. All that does is change the 0.3 above to a 0.45, and we recalculate. We get 55.81 5 second periods = 279 second fight, or 4 minutes 39 seconds (Patchwerk still is much longer than that).
So something is wrong with the calculation if that is the result you get for a 6 minute fight, which I would say is close to the lower bound possible for Patchwerk - I suppose with full Naxx gear you could get down to 5:15 or 5:30, but I don't think 4:39 is really feasible.
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Can you check quickly how the numbers work out with 21 Spi and 10MP5, just to estimate my rounding error?
Also, you get 16x regen during Evoc, not 15.
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09/15/06, 11:51 AM
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#11
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Arawethion

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Originally Posted by snape
Nah, I did my own basic calculation, you can check the code I suppose. Here it is:
Claim: On a fight of Patchwerk duration - 20 spirit = 11 mp5
Argument: Let's compare. As said previously, 20 spirit = 300 mana added onto your Evocation (using the math there). In Patchwerk, you're chaincasting pretty much all the time, so you'll be inside 5 seconds almost always. Therefore, you get 20 / 4 = 5 x 0.3 = 1.5 more mana every 2 seconds. This is 3.75 mp5. (I'll run this calculation again later assuming full Arcane Med).
So, so far we have 300 + 3.75x (where x is the number of 5 second periods). Setting this equal to 11x (which is 11 mp5 times the number of 5 second periods), we get x = 41.38 5 second periods = 207 second fight, or 3 minutes 27 seconds (clearly, Patchwerk takes much longer than this even in the best case).
So, I thought, OK, let's assume he has full Arcane Med. All that does is change the 0.3 above to a 0.45, and we recalculate. We get 55.81 5 second periods = 279 second fight, or 4 minutes 39 seconds (Patchwerk still is much longer than that).
So something is wrong with the calculation if that is the result you get for a 6 minute fight, which I would say is close to the lower bound possible for Patchwerk - I suppose with full Naxx gear you could get down to 5:15 or 5:30, but I don't think 4:39 is really feasible.
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Can you check quickly how the numbers work out with 21 Spi and 10MP5, just to estimate my rounding error?
Also, you get 16x regen during Evoc, not 15.
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Without Arcane Med: 264 seconds, 4 minutes 24 seconds
With 3/3 Arcane Med: 391 seconds, 6 minutes, 31 seconds (this is the only one of the 4 cases which seems correct, but the real question is: did you really round? did your spreadsheet include 3/3 Arcane Med? and if so, why are you specced that way? lol)
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09/15/06, 11:55 AM
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#12
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
1 crit = 1.3 hit = 15 Fire dmg = 11 MP5 = 20 Spi = 28 Int
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I am assuming this is based off of the mana value and does not take into account the added crit from the int?
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09/15/06, 12:04 PM
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#13
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Maklar
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
1 crit = 1.3 hit = 15 Fire dmg = 11 MP5 = 20 Spi = 28 Int
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I am assuming this is based off of the mana value and does not take into account the added crit from the int?
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If it was based off the mana value, then 15 fire damage would do absolutely nothing for you, except possibly shorten the duration of the fight, but it would only be by a negligible amount and surely isn't part of the spreadsheet.
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09/15/06, 12:15 PM
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#14
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by Maklar
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
1 crit = 1.3 hit = 15 Fire dmg = 11 MP5 = 20 Spi = 28 Int
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I am assuming this is based off of the mana value and does not take into account the added crit from the int?
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Nope, it computes crit% based on Int. Static mana bonuses just have small effects over fights of nontrivial length.
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09/15/06, 12:17 PM
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#15
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<Druid Trainer>
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Originally Posted by snape
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Originally Posted by Maklar
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Originally Posted by Arawethion
1 crit = 1.3 hit = 15 Fire dmg = 11 MP5 = 20 Spi = 28 Int
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I am assuming this is based off of the mana value and does not take into account the added crit from the int?
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If it was based off the mana value, then 15 fire damage would do absolutely nothing for you, except possibly shorten the duration of the fight, but it would only be by a negligible amount and surely isn't part of the spreadsheet.
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Correct, the spreadsheet makes the assumption that fight duration is a constant.
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