I believe he's referring to ez-shot. I mean scatter shot.

Forgive me for the snarky comment, but how much mana does it take to Pyro > fireball > fireblast.

Then again, maybe I've stood there rooted watching a mage cast a pyroblast at me (with no CD's up) one too many times.

I thought he was referring to Intercept/Charge.

D'oh!

while we're at it.. put hamstring on a frickin cooldown already... 6 seconds.. *anything*

Actually, I wasn't refering to either. You can at least resist intercept's stun, which is less powerful than a knockdown. Plus its combination of other abilities that make a ranged knockdown imbalanced.

If rogues had intercept, we would be beyond overpowered. No ranged class would ever get away from us. Might as well have something like this:

Just like those carrion spinners from Naxxaramas. Funny, but completely imbalanced.

I wouldn't much like that. I dont pvp THAT much, but its just enough to not like the trend we're seeing in TBC where "If you want to have the survivability you've been begging for for months -or- if you want to be truely competitive in pvp, you're speccing deep sub. But dont forget your required 16 points in assassination!"

Then take the problems rogues already have now (lowest mitigation out of any class, etc) and magnify them a bit? I guess I'll wait until I get a chance to play around with it, but it doesn't look too good.

Potions are currently a money/time sink. The players that herbalize for cash would do something else (probably grind mobs that drop cash) which would add money to the system. Every time you pop a pot, you are removing something valuable from the world economy, something that cost somebody time to make.

Well, based *solely* on the current talent trees / spells (a bad assumption I realize as combat / ass are on their way to being buffed in some manner), sub looks like it'll be the way to go for pvp & pve, at the moment (1.12) hemo rogues are already very close to dealing comparable damage to the combat spec's. Add in 10% more agility in the sub tree, and virtually no additional dps abilities in either the combat or ass trees (31+ in combat is weak, as is most stuff deep in the ass tree).

I think rogues will be looking at something like what warriors are looking at in the expansion: pure arms / fury builds do the most damage, but a fury / prot build would do very similar damage (5-10% difference iirc) AND have great tanking skills if they're needed to offtank something / have greater survivability.

Elemental shaman blow virtually their whole mana pool if they don't land a couple of lucky crits in a one on one scenario between shocks, heals and any bolts they can get off. If shaman don't have massive mana pools to help combat the large amount of health players will have the will be in big trouble.

It's probably not as big of a deal for other casters but shaman are brutally mana inefficient when it comes to PvP.

Me? What part of my "ranged knock down" made you think of charge. Quite a big difference I thought.

You are romanticising. WoW PvP has actually gone from less to more balanced with time. The 'golden age' you speak of put casters at a severe disadvantage vs melee due to the broken itemization. Pre-nerf Arcanite Reaper >>>> some stats on Magister's.

More to the point of this thread, vastly increased hit points are a fine change for raid design, but a very dangerous change for pvp. PvP is notoriously difficult to balance even with small, incremental changes, let alone huge ones like increasing everyone's hp 500%. If I were to put my 'guild wars hat' on, and try to think about the changes this will bring to the 'pvp meta-game,' I would conclude the following:

(a) More hp helps healers, and makes healers more valuable in pvp. Currently, focus fire kills people so fast there's very little healers can do to save someone. Any time a fight is dragged out and people don't insta-die, healing becomes key.

(b) Fights become less about focus bursting people down, and more about seizing tempo with crowd control and surprise -- a boost to cc classes and rogues.

(c) 'Uneven matchups' like frost mage vs warrior, or warlock vs mage will become even MORE uneven! This is because in a short fight the underdog has a chance to pull some trick or get lucky and use 'edge effects' to nullify the statistical advantage of his opponent. If fights are dragged out the designed advantage dominates 'luck and circumstance.'

(d) Classes with lots of escape options (druids, mages, rogues) get a big boost because they have time to hightail it out of an encounter.

Have you read what I actually said? Increased HP makes cc stronger. Insofar as rogues can cc, rogues become stronger too, or more precisely, their cc becomes more valuable and encounter-changing. Rogues are not just a high damage class, they are a tempo-seizing class. Seizing tempo becomes more important as hp grows.

God, this place is becoming a haven for snappy one-liners, like wowforums. What a shame.

That's exactly what I'm trying to argue to my friends, but they are having literally *none* of it. Their response has been a flat: L2P.

EDIT: Only b/c Silya added rogues to his/her "lots of escape options" ...... I hope that was a joke.

Rogue CC is relatively insignificant. The gain from CC becoming more important is more than offset by the loss of the ability to burst things to death.

Except Rogue CC is immensily unreliable because all of it is mucn more likely to fail and are all on cooldowns (well Sap isn't on a cooldown, but it's Sap), not to mention because of combo points, momemntum changing is hardly viable on multiple targets unless it is an emergency.

Let's see. Leaving aside the ability to completely shut down a single character by using reagents and cooldowns for a significant portion of time, rogues can also spec for improved sap, which lets them do something no other cc class can do -- have a good chance to put multiple enemies on ice for a longish period of time. Without having to be visible in melee range like aoe fearers.

Sap can only be applied to one target at a time. If you sap a second target, the first target becomes unsapped.

A complete shutdown that fails, quite often, and requires that no one else do damage to your target, and doesn't last very long unless you spec for PvP, and can be done once every 10 minutes, isn't enough to counterbalance the fact that during the other 9 minutes you can't shut someone down, you also can't kill anyone because burst is inadequate.

Gouge: requires your target not be touched, short term, cuts your DPS significantly, DR.
KS: requires time to build to, DR, but is actually pretty decent for all that. Cooldown as well.
CS: requires you to be in stealth. Good luck!
Blind: Long cooldown, reagent, DR.
Sap: Requires you to be in stealth, breaks on damage.
Crippling Poison: Unreliable, requires you to be in melee range and un-CCed. Although Shiv will help with the unreliable part.
MNP: Most people don't bother using this in PvP because it's situational and overall you're better off with 2x crippling. Doesn't help vs. instants, either.

Rogue CC isn't meaningful in a group PvP environment; the best of it can be replicated by warriors/mages (movement slowing) and paladins (stunning).

Why would CC become stronger with higher HP pools? That makes absolutely no sense at all. I mean if my mage couldn't be feared/silenced for a couple seconds and bursted down during the time I am running around like an idiot. I would stand a much better chance at winning against warlocks than currently.

Increased HP directly makes CC less worthwhile in pretty much every way imaginable. Diminishing returns kicks in MORE often as you won't be able to burst them down during the CC and the fight drags on with your CC skills becoming less and less useful.

Rogues/Mages (Stealth Openers/Polymorph) become even less important in the scheme of things when compared to silence/fear/stun CC devices because they tend to be used on targets with full HP.

Quite backwards thinking....

If a rogue is stunlocking something, he's doing less damage than a voidwalker.

That doesn't make sense. Rogues did great when it was blue gear vs blue gear.

Through MC, BWL, AQ, and even into Naxx, my health has gone up less than 1000 from the blues I started out with, despite a massive upgrade in item level. Despite this, everyone's damage output has literally doubled, if it hasn't increased more.

They haven't upgraded the stam on our gear (except for tank sets), while continuing to upgrade damage and healing output, so increasing everyone's stam, if done correctly, should simply return PvP a bit more to where you can't one shot people quite as easily, and have to actually play. That is really one of the main things I think they are trying to correct.

Again, rogues did great in blue vs blue conditions. They've also recently been buffed to match up a bit with other classes that were buffed in the past. I'm not seeing this as some sort of nerf for rogues.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=8497

hi

And

Do you mean opportunity as a Tier 1 talent? I'm going to be honest with you, this is the wrong board to go off half cocked asserting as to how rogues got buffed. The only one I can think of that relates directly to PvP in a not insignificant manner is imp sprint removing snare effects. Then there's the sub tree, which unless you're going prep (as a dagger rogue) a lot of people aren't even putting more than 5 points into these days.