Advancing the expansion bring giant HPs theory - Page 6

Dakous · 09/16/06, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Aloxy

I think 25k is a bit too high. Base hp for a tank at 60 is like 2500, and then top end gear gives another 4500. Say your base health increases by 500 to level 70, and that top level 70 gear gives _twice_ the health (and that would be a bit much in my opinion), that would land at 12k unbuffed. To what levels would buffs bring that? I guess it will be pretty high, a fully buffed tauren would probably hit 20k. Anyway I agree with Amera, seems pretty boring.

On the specific number of 25k tank HP
You're getting hung up on the numbers, but let me ask you this -

If a warrior, the high HP class, can get nuked pretty effectively by a mage trinketing, and the problem is PVP oneshots, doesn't it stand to reason that all classes are going to move above the current warrior HP ballpark? At which point, the question becomes... is the warrior perk only going to be physical mitigation, or is their HP going to scale similarly?

Where it's 20k, 25k, 17k is immaterial. The theorycrafting is around the premise (which you're welcome to dismiss, but in this thread, it is the premise) of huge HP pools come expansion. How huge is almost a non-sequitor.

On it being boring

I fail to see how it's boring. For those of us who did Majordomo back when the gearlevel was what it was (wru Dire Maul), the fight wasn't boring. A fight can be five minutes of engaging play that isn't "Let's give the raid's 35% healing portion a series of heart attacks." It's been done, it can be done again. And it's easy to dissect. He who ran OOM first, looses.

TL-Seria · 09/16/06, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by henaki

Originally Posted by sekdar

I also hate to say this, but I know of no good roup PVP rogue videos that I can point you towards for more info on this subject. If anybody else knows of one, by all means please post it.

For that matter, are there any PvP videos that actually show off group viability? The only one I can think of is Jamaz's series.

Edit: I guess I am better at WSG that I thought I am :O, since all I attempt to do is fuck healers up the ass and fail miserably.

I'm not going to take the FPS loss against another A-Team in Warsong to record it. There won't be any videos until we get obs mode in TBC.

Schnappi · 09/16/06, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by sekdar

Watching this thread get turned into a rogue PVP complaint thread hurts.

How about a protection warrior one?

Oh well, at least it is fun to get a Blessing of Freedom and casually run through 5 rogues and warriors with the flag. :P

Squarepusher · 09/16/06, 11:28 PM

In an attempt to save face, I'll redirect my writing.

Playing a rogue is fun, but you have to justify your bg slot. I had a warlock tell me just the other day that he couldn't wait to finish his r11 grind so he could start up on his rogue, they are so fun! I nodded in agreement as he single handedly solo'd a WSG pug GY. There are higher levels of rogue play available, but I would make the argument that those skilled individuals do little else but begin to justify their slot.

Rogue CC has a myriad of requirements. Cool down / reagent. Stealth. Position. Out of combat. Energy. Energy is often overlooked. After a sap and blind, you are pretty drained and (spec / luck depending) out of stealth, a fat target, and lacking openers (your real saving grace). Difficult to escape, impossible to reapply. But as an outsider looking in, it looks impressive when it happens. You aren't watching those cd's the next five minutes and you didn't die twice because they are gone. You also don't see the energy bar and realize you lack the ability to execute your touted harassment beyond offering a warm target.

This isn't a discussion we need to have. Rogue CC is inferior to others, as it should be. It's good. But you know what would be better / easier? Pretty much any other class with an ae or reappliable CC. It is a tool a rogue has, but it cannot justify their slot. Nobody brings a rogue to bg's because we have blind or sap. And even less so if greater HP pools indicate longer fights.

Take your example. Do you know what makes a great CC tool that we all have? A warm body. A distraction. Then add skills to that. A hunter trap where the rogue was would work. A frost nova would work. An ae fear. Multiple targetted fears. Aburd dot piles. Any horse knockers. It all works. While the rogue compensated with masterful play and a myriad of cool downs insuring you probably won't see a repeat that particular wsg match, the circumstances and skills used which met him that day can be easier and more often created by others.

That is the point. Not that it can't be done, but that if you want it done, if you desire it, you should find someone who can do it more often.

Most rogues dig on the idea of being healer harassment. But every rogue is a slot dedicated to only removing a single opponent from the equation (and not even a killing removal as burst loses power, a harassed momentary removal) while ae / cc takes out multiples. We might be the best single target harasser, but that simply pales in strength next to what other classes provide on the field.

How much better do we *really* harass a healer than a reappliable, short cd, CC anyway?

Gloom and doom. I believe it simply stems from being easy to kill, hard to kill others, and an inability to affect the battlefield in ways rogues watch others do repeatably. I don't look at the KB board with jealousy. I understand ranged plink plink their way to the top. I look at the mass on the field of nova'd fear'd entrapp'd enemies and begin to wonder what I am providing other than a warm body to draw fire. Or the flag I am defending click click clicking multiple targets fruitlessly while an ae handles it flawlessly.

Inarguably weak and situational CC. Inability to affect multiple targets on the field. All the harassment of a single target in the world doesn't really make that up and even worse so if fight length increases. The tools we have for harassment begin to fall away. Gouge is unlikely to stick the duration and is simply a very expensive interrupt. Kidney Shot can no longer have its cool down reduced. Cheap Shot requires stealth. Kick... works. Momentarily.

I'll let it die now, I promise.

sekdar · 09/17/06, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Squarepusher

But to sekdar - I know your profile says 'warrior' but it's really not necessary to see that to know you don't play a rogue.

No, not currently. My rogue was my original main before I rerolled. I've raided on it, PVP'd on it, and dueled people outside IF on it. I don't need to play my rogue right now to watch skilled ones perform in PVP day in, day out.

Oh, and I rerolled to help my guild with PVE raiding before someone tries to use that against me :P

Anyone who refers to the "Sap that saved the day" in a bg has obviously never actually tried to land it in group pvp on a consistent basis. The advice to wait until targets are choosen pretty much cinches it, as players often enter combat nearly immediately after. Or if they don't, I'm near the one that did and a 10s sneakcrawl away from the one that didn't. I'm gonna get seen on the way over there, anyway, or a random god awful ae or felhunter will catch me.

Landing saps is hard, no doubt. It's far from impossible, especially if you know what puts players in combat and what doesn't and specifically look out for it. Not every fight features an opening to sap, either.

Blind is nicer than having no blind. It has some value. It rarely is going to impact anything in a meaningful way.

Completely false. You not using blind in a meaningful way does not mean that blind is rarely used in meaningful ways.

As players, we tend to wildly under estimate how long a bloody pvp skirmish lasts. The mileage out of blind is seconds in what often results in 1 to 2 minute fights. I use it, all the time, especially now that reagent is easier to come by, but all I am generally doing is throwing silver pieces at Horde and accomplishing little else.

Odd. I thought all the rogues here complained about getting 2-shotted, talked about assist trains that killed people in seconds flat, and this very thread is addressing the issue of fights being too short getting lengthened by increased stamina. Fights are now too long for blind to be useful?

It does happen that on occasion a sap and a blind impact the field in a pleasurable way, but make no mistake - group pvp is born from ae and range and healing cinches it. Blind is an incredibly crippled ae fear. Snare poison is crippled hamstring. Vanish more often than not serves only to momentarily cause you to drop from an opponents target. I would often rather have blink.

You have to find out your strengths and play to them if you want to get any enjoyment in pvp - complaining about your weaknesses by contrasting them to what other classes get doesn't get you anywhere. If you want blink, roll a mage - neither you nor I are going to get that ability.

I am thrilled that you saw a rogue, one day, pull off a blind / sap combo that really turned you on, but if it was feasible to do so on a regular basis, it would be something everyone'd be popping off left and right. I am not a glittering gem of pvp godliness because I've gotten a few in my day - I'm just a lucky terd sometimes.

This is not a one-day occurance. Good players play well (and do these kinds of things) on a regular basis. It's feasible to expose armor a sapped or blinded/sheeped/mez'd target, but how many people pop them off left and right? There's a learning curve to things here, and you're going to be rewarded with a much greater effect on the fight if you put in the effort to pull these things off.

The assist train. Let's just call it the ranged train and be done with it. You aren't going to live long enough to participate, even if you could manage to reach the current target before it dies under a withering hail of bullets and fireballs. Rogues don't get to play this game, so no wonder we have a solo mentality. Besides, it doesn't do any good to cheap shot someone who'll be dead in 2 seconds, anyway.

I specifically addressed this in my post. Read that part - it doesn't look like you have.

Locking down healers. It works. The more incompetant the team is, the better chance you have of flat out dropping them, too. Everyone knows what you're doing, though, and that you are probably the softest target around. You will be targetted and you will die. There's no escaping this despite all the marvelled and oft cursed tools you have at your disposal to escape 1v1's. Back in the day (/fart), at least one could take an enemy down with you and you could lie in the dirt together. Just doesn't work that way any more.

False. If you get swamped by melee, you use evasion and last longer than any warrior in berserker stance who gets an equal amount of melee piling on him. If you are attacked by casters, you're less "squishy" than that warrior with the same amount of HP as you who is taking 10% extra damage.

And guess what? If everyone targets you, you die no matter what class you are, unless you have an attack specifically designed for this situation (i.e. DS or iceblock) that isn't on cooldown.

Which brings me to this - suicidal distraction. Try to stay alive. Let them see you, put on your reflectors, and draw fire. I've had gaggles of Horde chase me through entire squads of my team mates to their doom as they focus fire on me with the intention of getting revenge for every rogue that ever beat them in a duel while blowing all their cool downs. They hate you. They don't want you to get a single HK the entire match. If you have nice gear, they don't want you to get a single HK all *day*. They want you back at Private.

An entire team of pugs focus firing you has no bearing on the balance of your class.

AE and Ranged is the name of the game here and you've got neither. While everyone else hits a button to affect 3+ players at once, you've found a target not in combat by *not participating in the fight at hand yourself*, blown stealth, blown a reagent coupled with a cool down, and drained your energy to the point that by the time you get it back, ONE of your cc's is already over. You're most likely dead at this point, too, probably a trinket mage who begins to dwarf your burst dps.

Who said you need to take out all these players simultaneously? Why do you keep contrasting your class against mages?

And something else that I don't see mentioned very often - purposeful irregular player movement to mitigate your DPS. When I started to pvp more seriously, I had to change the majority of my keybinds because if you cannot fire your specials while in wasd / esdf fluid motion, forget about landing backstabs. Snares have the capacity to put me not only on the ground, but the walking dead anyway. This is why I think the new rogue talent, the ranged snare, sounds nice, but not wild. Odds are I have been immobilized, as well. I am lucky that with a decent computer, connection, reflexes, and bindings I may be able to annoy reasonably well, but a random jog to the side or backwards which nullifies a dropped backstab before the ae fear or god knows what is incredibly frustrating.

Crippling poison is the strongest melee snare in the game - if it's on your target this is a moot point. If it's getting dispelled too often, why don't you spec the PVP talent for your poisons to resist dispel rather than write it off? If you're snared, why aren't you getting dispelled by your teammates? This is a completely ridiculous arguement - if I get snared as a warrior, I'm just as useless as you are, except 100% of the time I am reliant upon healer support instead of having cooldowns to occasionally break them.

Melee get snared, melee get AOE'd, melee take the brunt of everything. Melee require a lot more support from healers than ranged do. You're going to get hit with blast wave, whirlwind, etc. - you have to accept it. If healers aren't healing you, it's not a class balance problem.

Rogues have no ae, no ranged, spotty to insignificant cc's, lengthy cd's on abilities with limited value in group pvp to prevent them from being used every 1v1 match.

Rogues have the most stuns, the most disables, the strongest snare in the game, the most ways to interrupt a spell caster, the best damage-support PVP skills in the game, and lengthy cooldown abilities that can be used to devastating situational advantage. Group PVP shouldn't be looked at as a series of 1v1 matches.

Every person who pvp's has frustrations with their class, even if they love their choice. I do love my rogue, dearly, but there is a reason that r14 rogues are rare these days despite our populous class. There is a reason that the set group you are joining has only one rogue in it. To have more is too crippling to your group's ae or flag running or ranged or healing or um, worthwhile non cooldown cc, or, well whatever.

R14 rogues are rare because, as mentioned, there are too few of them that know their role and either don't pursue PVP because of frustrations, or reroll other classes for PVPing.

Also, people tend to move with the flow of the "easy" or flavor of the month class. Remember that massive surge in warrior population way back when?

Two last facets of retardation. DPS warriors are my easiest kill by far on the field while I am afraid to open on a mage lest he slips into ae annihilation mode. Does this sound intuitive?

Yet you don't consider warriors the weakest class in PVP. Your whole mindset seems to revolve around wanting to be "fixed" rather than to find ways to adapt and overcome your problems.

edit: grammar

Squarepusher · 09/17/06, 1:32 AM

Deleted, apologies.

silya · 09/17/06, 1:45 AM

Originally Posted by Squarepusher

You seem to have confused me with someone who is having a debate. That this is a back and forth discussion. It's not. That post is a lengthy diatribe of frustrations, not an invitation to play a game of wack-a-mole quotes and in the end do nothing but exclaim "l2p".

This is a thread about the implications of increasing maximum hp for pve and pvp gameplay. If you are not interested in debating these things, but want to whine about your sad lot in life as a rogue, may I suggest wow forums, or at least starting a new thread?

On the topic of this thread: aren't healers afraid that increasing hp of players, while getting rid of the annoying insta-gib spikes will also make healer gameplay more boring? Like, everquest boring? Right now at least healers have to pay attention.

Squarepusher · 09/17/06, 2:05 AM

Deleted, apologies.

Manson · 09/17/06, 2:07 AM

Originally Posted by Squarepusher

You have major misconceptions regarding the rogue class and they likely stem from seeing a rogue or two streak along with some amazing moves in particular situations. That one in one hundred game winning play you've seen would be better and far more often accomplished by pretty much any other class you want to toss into the mix.

Naw not really. I've been playing rogue on and off for a long time now and they're fine. People just always assume that any weakness is the classes and not their own and take it to the boards. Hence the constant whining of every class about how they're underpowered, its just myopia, and maybe a little stupidity to persist in it. No one wants to hear you cry about how the class sucks wholesale just like no one wants to hear how that its legit that hunters should kill people without a chance 1.7% of the time. Good hunters can kite the shit out of people and never get hit, bad ones only get kills 1.7% of the time and think the class is weak and to take that 1.7 away from them is to take the only redeeming ability of the class--which it is, for them. But face it, its far more likely that you're bad than the class sucks. Better minds than you are at work on balancing the game.

• Shalas · 09/17/06, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Squarepusher

That post is a lengthy diatribe of frustrations, not an invitation to play a game of wack-a-mole quotes and in the end do nothing but exclaim "l2p".

If you're just posting to whine, then don't do it. The point of a forum is to discuss things.

Copernicus · 09/17/06, 3:09 AM

Originally Posted by silya

On the topic of this thread: aren't healers afraid that increasing hp of players, while getting rid of the annoying insta-gib spikes will also make healer gameplay more boring? Like, everquest boring? Right now at least healers have to pay attention.

Insta-gib spikes will still occur in PvE. Mob damage is determined by Blizzard. The main effect of increasing hit points in PvE is to give healers more options on what spells to use. Something like Greater Heal Rank 5 could easily heal for over 3K on a non-crit given current gear. The situations though where a tank can properly time that heal to land where the tank can get full benefit are few and far between though, because of the current hit point pools.

We'll have to see how your typical tank-and-spank boss fight will be in TBC before we can start determining how raid healing will work. I suspect, based on current fights and what is known, that your typical fight will require 4-5 healers on the MT constantly, with the other 5-6 healers providing a raid buff with spot healing on spike damage and maintaining a HoT on the MT.

sulliwan · 09/17/06, 3:14 AM

Great post sekdar. Only thing I have to disagree with is the rogue's role in wsg defense, I suppose it works for alliance but for horde a hunter+rogue in defense are pretty much useless against a good paladin+druid attack team. Lately I've been trying to have either a hunter+warlock or a mage+warlock in defense if we got enough casters to not leave midfield without fire power and it works a lot better than a hunter+rogue combination.
I find that in wsg a rogue is often best played in midfield, to lock down enemy healers and to protect your own healers. Also, if you're facing a standoff where both teams got eachother's flag, a rogue is invaluable for getting your flag back.

zepi · 09/17/06, 5:03 AM

Originally Posted by sulliwan

I suppose it works for alliance but for horde a hunter+rogue in defense are pretty much useless against a good paladin+druid attack team.

How on earth I missed that one. Rogues role as a good flag defender is in jeopardy, as both teams will have Paladins with Blessing of Protection...

Kody · 09/17/06, 6:33 AM

Blind is a ridiculously valuable tool in PVP. I agree with sekdarian on everything he said, I enjoy playing my rogue in BG's - not sure what has everyone down on the class currently. That said, I also agree with Kalman that if they follow through with this change to the stamina cost of item budgets, rogues will suffer in the killing aspect of PVP. We will still be one of the top classes when it comes to locking someone down, which is very useful in WSG, et al. But, there are also times when we need to kill someone off quickly and it'll be a lot harder, if not impossible, on a tank with 12k armor and 10k hp unbuffed. Even with assist trains, it's going to be damn hard killing a druid or warrior in top-tier gear in the expansion.

♦ Oggie · 09/17/06, 8:35 AM

Sorry about the derail of a derail, but sekdar- why do you consider crippling the best snare in the game?

TL-Seria · 09/17/06, 9:17 AM

it has the highest player snare% I guess, but hamstring on the other hand is not cureable. Thing is that a 50% slowed rogue can easily keep up with a crippled enemy

Manson · 09/17/06, 11:07 AM

Its good because it doesn't cost rage or energy to apply it and doesn't take up the global cooldown, and its a stronger snare. The downside being that its kind of random and it can be cleansed off, but it does go off a lot.

♦ Oggie · 09/17/06, 11:22 AM

Good points, and I'm sorry for derailing, just was wondering what the basis was for caling it the best- fully talented blizz is slower, EB grabs without targeting, hamstring is hard to remove and spammable, ect. I don't do high skill pvp so I thought it might just be something I missed.

Something else a guildie pointed out between my first post and this was that OH crippling + shiv is going to basicly give rogues a hamstring, which is mildly terrifying.

/endderail

probiscus · 09/17/06, 11:31 AM

A lot of strawmen in this post, I'm going for a 5 hour motorcycle ride, but will try to respond when I get back.

sekdar · 09/17/06, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Oggie

Sorry about the derail of a derail, but sekdar- why do you consider crippling the best snare in the game?

I'm going to have to be more careful in my wording in the future :)

I do not consider crippling poison the best snare in the game. It is, however the strongest in terms of slowing percentage - the reason I mentioned it was due to the complaint that, when snared, the rogue is useless. The rogue's snare is strong enough to keep him in melee range of his target while suffering from almost any other snare in the game - the exceptions being the "flypaper" snares.

The AOE ice slick trap with Entrapment spec and fully talented Blizzard are hands-down the "best" snares in PVP because they can lock down an entire group of melee if they don't have FA potions or BoF to break them free of the traps. They have a huge immobilization potential and have an exceptionally high chance of re-rooting the target if they trinket out or burn some form of snare-breaking cooldown.

♦ Oggie · 09/17/06, 2:38 PM

For the record I was -not- trying to trash you or trap ya with semantics, I was just wondering if I was missing something, since everything else seemed to make sense to me. *grin* Totally not going for the nitpick angle.

Edit:
Should mention that the classes I've pvped with are shaman, paladins and pure frost mage, not exactly ones where crippling is going to be what kills me/saves them.

henaki · 09/17/06, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by sekdar

The AOE ice slick trap with Entrapment spec and fully talented Blizzard are hands-down the "best" snares in PVP because they can lock down an entire group of melee if they don't have FA potions or BoF to break them free of the traps. They have a huge immobilization potential and have an exceptionally high chance of re-rooting the target if they trinket out or burn some form of snare-breaking cooldown.

Not to mention it takes Rogues out of Stealth :(

Torael_7 · 09/17/06, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by zepi

Originally Posted by sulliwan

I suppose it works for alliance but for horde a hunter+rogue in defense are pretty much useless against a good paladin+druid attack team.

How on earth I missed that one. Rogues role as a good flag defender is in jeopardy, as both teams will have Paladins with Blessing of Protection...

You mean Blessing of Freedom? Protection would make them drop the flag. However, freedom doesn't make you immune to stuns, it makes you immune to snares.

Although with a pally healing the druid there's no WAY a rogue will be able to kill him.

Squarepusher · 09/17/06, 3:30 PM

My intention in that paragraph wasn't to make the argument that "when snared, the rogue is useless." That is an artifact you created with a ridiculous wack-a-mole approach.

Kody · 09/17/06, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Torael_7

Originally Posted by zepi

Originally Posted by sulliwan

I suppose it works for alliance but for horde a hunter+rogue in defense are pretty much useless against a good paladin+druid attack team.

How on earth I missed that one. Rogues role as a good flag defender is in jeopardy, as both teams will have Paladins with Blessing of Protection...

You mean Blessing of Freedom? Protection would make them drop the flag. However, freedom doesn't make you immune to stuns, it makes you immune to snares.

Although with a pally healing the druid there's no WAY a rogue will be able to kill him.

Only partially correct. You're not even allowed to BoP someone with the flag anymore.

Edit: And BoP is fairly useless in most situations on a melee. Obviously if you're in a must save situation and the only people on the person is other melee, then sure it's viable, but you can't melee while BoP is up either. Now, casters on the other hand...it's great for putting on a mage or warlock being smacked around by melee, because they can keep casting all they want with it up.