I think he was referring to blessing of sacrifice making the paladin immune to sap and BoP being, as far as I know, the only ability that can dispell sap/gouge in the game.

rogue is much harder to play than the other dps / cc classes and at the end of the day a rogue played to his max isnt really better than a mage, but on a mage you can relax and not play to full and still be decent, not so with rogue.

I dont see how the spot for rogue is justified when basically you have the class being as good as mages except without range... and harder to play because in pvp with the aoes and snares and fears flying around its far harder to play a rogue well than it is to play a caster sitting way in the back not being feared and not having to worry so much about snares.

As a follow up, b/c I said I would, I watched some guy die this morning in a MC accident, so forgive me if I don't feel like debating why rogues are/aren't good in PvP. :(

My condolences probiscus. :(

I was doing AB this weekend (finally hit exalted), and I came against an alliance PUG with 4-5 rogues. In group engagements, they would wait until someone was below 50% before even coming out of stealth. In one encounter, it was 4 of us were vs 3 of them, and they survived long enough to get me (the healer) down to 60% or so. Then a rogue jumps and gets me down to execute range and I'm dead, leaving my team without a healer.


After that, I had to be alot more conservative with my PvP trinket/fear/shield cooldowns, just on the chance a rogue would be near. I don't doubt there are alot of problems with Rogue PvP, but I do think alot of people play them poorly, focusing soley on dps output. Which is what you need to do in raids and in the early days, but not now.

Anyway, I do think the increase in hitpoints will hurt solo rogue PvP a lot, since the class is designed around bursting your target down, but in a group, I think it'll be okay.

Berserker Rage can break Sap, at the very least. Something I remember from when I used to actually PvP on my warrior.

Yeah. As you can tell I've never played a warrior and generally just cast nature's grasp upon meeting one, hoping he'll spin really fast around an axis and go 'poof' to the sound of breaking porcelain.

In other news, there appears to be a fresh TBC client. Tomorrow should be entertaining as all the usual culprits kick into high gear.

Yeah. Mutilate apparently got some interesting changes, that I haven't had a chance to think about yet, and Surprise Attacks is no longer horrible.

For something to brighten the day, take a peek at the Avenger's Shield graphic.

I won't be satisfied until there's a Captain America voiceover for the sound effect. Done by Patrick Stewart. In a girl voice.

But then again when you go and win a roll to get the best level 50 weapon in Sunken Temple you get back what you invested, something that won't last very long. Most guilds will raid 6-8 months at least before they get to C'thun, that's a lot of investment going in to DEoI. You can't really compare 60 to lower levels, it needs to be handled much more delicately. And MMOs are all about progression not time sinks, it's just that progression is often found in time sink form.

What exactly have they changed? I can't seem to find any info nor get into the official forums.

I didn't say it was datamined info. It isn't.

Basically, it's two seperate attacks (MH and OH, OH at 100%). Positional, requires daggers, rewards 2 CP for 60 energy. Affected by Opportunity and Lethality. If target is poisoned, delivers an extra 348 (that's including Opportunity) damage. They're treated as seperate attacks, so either/both can crit seperately. No crit bonus, though.

BS's new rank is 150% + 255, also.

Damage-wise, assuming target is poisoned, Mut vs. BS now becomes (assuming equal damage range weapons MH/OH, which isn't actually a safe assumption):

(240% + 348 + 348 + 2.4*AP/14*1.7)*(1 + 1.3c) vs (150% + AP/14*1.7*1.5 + 255)*1.2*(1+1.3(c+.3))

Assuming a Kingsfall/Death's Sting combo at 1800 AP and 30% crit, we get:

(1.2*(131.5) + 1.2*(119.5) + 580 + 1800/14*1.7*2.4)*(1+1.3*.3) = 1954.02 average damage per Mutilate on poisoned target
(1.2*(131.5) + 1.2*(119.5) + 1800/14*1.7*2.4)*(1+1.3*.3) = 1147.82 average damage per Mutilate on unpoisoned target

Backstab yields:

1.2*(131.5*1.5 + 1800/14*1.7*1.5 + 255)*(1+1.3*.6) = 1666.30 average damage per Backstab

*Bit* of an upgrade, that Mutilate. Probably even worth it for PvE DPS as daggers.

(Oh, and Surprise Attacks now is supposedly no dodging BS/Gouge/SS, but also 5% bonus damage to those abilities.)

edit: Oh, and lower AP numbers, to reflect non-raid buffed situations (assume 1000 AP).

Assuming a Kingsfall/Death's Sting combo at 1000 AP and 30% crit, we get:

(1.2*(131.5) + 1.2*(119.5) + 696 + 1000/14*1.7*2.4)*(1+1.3*.3) = 1791.19 average damage per Mutilate on poisoned target
(1.2*(131.5) + 1.2*(119.5) + 1000/14*1.7*2.4)*(1+1.3*.3) = 823.75 average damage per Mutilate on unpoisoned target

Backstab yields:

1.2*(131.5*1.5 + 1000/14*1.7*1.5 + 255)*(1+1.3*.6) = 1355.06 average damage per Backstab