Obviously. Few things are black and white. I'm sure if you think of your guild -- any guild pretty much -- you can name some people who are more patient and conciliatory in their approach to the game and to interacting with others, and you can name some people who are more prone to get defensive or hostile in the face of adversity. No group is going to be perfectly homogenous, nor would you really want that, but if you're looking to build a cohesive unit (as well as a group that's fun to play with) I think most people in the thread here are in agreement that you need to draw the line on attitude somewhere, "skill" be damned.

Oh, snap. Too bad, I've found surprisingly few Russian people in this game (the only one that I know of was kind of a royal asshole, too). Perhaps they're all on the EU servers.

I think most people who are guilded look on PUGs with somewhat of a holy terror though; it's not just a matter of guild level elitism. With your guildies, at least there's a bit of quality control. With an "u goin 2 ubrs?" pug... there really isn't. I don't even view that as elitism, if it's just a "Man, I hate PUGs" kind of attitude. If your guild members are completely unwilling to do a run if it's not a guild run, though, it may be a problem. Sometimes you have to PUG stuff, and being completely isolated from the rest of your server might not serve you well in the long run if you recruit. :)

Gurgthock: Obviously I need to brush up on my military Russian.

I hate to make stereotypes nezralix, but it just seems to me there are a lot more retards on alliance than horde... and this isn't due to the population imbalance, I mean a disproportionate amount. Back in the day this was particularly obvious with open world matchups...

Maybe i'm way off base here, i'm also talking about generality - at the top end alliance guilds are exceptional and obviously as good or better than horde. This isn't an attack on raid guilds or OMG BLESSINGS... just general alliance populace. RACISM!

I'm echo the "Not wanting to go in a PUG doesn't mean you're elitest" view. We've all done that 3 hours UBRS run where things item's get ninja'd, people leave after getting to Rend because they didn't get their Dal'Rend, etc., etc.

Although, I think prior to your final gear up to MC or ZG that everyone should be forced to PUG a few times. You might meet some good, skilled players who are just in a small guild and like you, are being forced to PUG. Those friendships can develop, and before you know, you've got some new guild mates.

I won't disagree with you. It's bound to result in all sorts of issues.

Part of the issue, notably with a new server, is the recruitment pool is relatively shallow -- being Horde on a PvE server somewhat compounding the problem. We didn't have the luxury of having a dearth of folks that had well-aligned mentalities to pre-form with a reasonably sized roster.

Additionally, we weren't hesitant on following up on policies. The first 3 weeks would appear as if I was cutting bloody swathes through the roster -- axing literally dozens of people who weren't online for over a week, or were too busy in Level 19 WSG instead of meeting our level requirements. I'm aware that several of our members found it a bit unsettling, but the vast majority know why it had to occur. Things are stabilizing now, but we're still expecting attrition of 1-2 folks a week for the next month.

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How do you handle the wee ones amongst the titans? Yeah, not simple. We're hitting ZG this upcoming weekend, and MC/Onyxia in two weeks (with the intention of full clears that week and getting FR prepped for Vael). Currently I've been taking advantage of 5-man instances and UBRS to gauge player skill and to at the very least make notes. Folks however have been approached with constructive suggestions, and many seem to ask on their own -- whether officers or their peers.

Again, there's that shallow recruitment pool, which is quickly absorbed by several other guilds with similar intentions sponging up talent. Momentum is everthing we've learned -- and we're hoping that quick success in the MC will again result in talent from other guilds looking to come on board. Realistically, I'll have some dead-weight and folks who can't do par for the course for some time -- I'm just looking to address those issues as quickly as I can (which will include removal from the guild) until I can get more quality folks on baord. Until then, yes, I do anticipate the skilled folks calling out the greenies at times. They just need to be constructive about it, and we need to be on the ball in swapping more skilled players into the raid, and at least giving an attempt to get the novices up to speed.

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Is my plan guaranteed? Hell no. If anything, I'm still more likely to fail than not. However it won't stop me from trying my damnedest.

That's not 100% true. In my guild we have a 15-year old Mage who is possibly the most annoying person you could ever have on vent - he has (or had, rather) the tendency to make a suggestion, usually bad, and assert it loudly and repetitively. He's also got one of those voices that just gets under your skin. He was actually kicked from my roommate's guild a few months back just for being obnoxious and whiny, despite that guild being pinched by a low-attendance period.

I didn't think he'd last long as a trial, but with some advice and warnings from our GM (I'm assuming), and judicious use of the gkick and global mute arsenal, he's actually improving. He's always been a pretty solid Mage and he's slowly becoming a solid member of the team. It's heartwarming in a way, just think how bitter he'd grow up if he was always shunned because of his personality ;) While I'm sure his youth has quite a bit to do with it, you CAN teach attitude.

Just on PUGs- how is it elitist to want to run a small group instance with people you know and trust over people you don't know and don't trust? Seems like common sense to me.

Like Gurgthock has posted before - raid guilds are like sports teams, and every league has their own Yankees.

Perhaps a different strategy that I describe below should be used for the "top guilds" since when competing for world firsts time plays a large factor. By which I mean, you wouldn't always have the luxury of spending a bit more time working with a player.

When I look at recruiting I choose either of the following players:

A) Naturally skilled with good attitude and mature social skills (obvious choice)

B) Not yet skilled with good attitude and mature social skills, but good potential i.e. eager to improve

I think many people underestimate the ability for someone to improve given some 1 on 1 time from a more knowledgable player. I've seen many raiders drastically improve their performance with some counsling on gear/spec/encounter optimizations. The same players that were initially labled as "terrible." And in the end, that player will be much more loyal and dedicated than the skilled "hardcore" raider that will jump ship at the first opportunity.

That is not to say, though, that there are not times when people are just beyond any help. Then, it's time to cut your losses. I guess that's more of a judgement call.

Malthrin: I used ot be a raging asshole when I was 15 also - playing DooM 2 and totally raging on n00bs... but yeah, some of that is probably growing up. Between 15-18 people change a LOT in their ability to deal with others.

Does every league have its own Rangers?

I was going to bring up the same thing, Malthrinn. We've had several players who started out to be total dickwads and are now productive members. Sure they still tend to have some underlying selfishness still, but I believe it's mostly due to being young. We've never recruited an older player (most of our guild is college+ age) who turned out to be an asshole that I can remember.

Though, I agree that you can't teach attitude in a serious way, but you can definitely make that person understand that their attitude is unacceptable and won't be tolerated. It can change a lot more than you think, though like I hinted...they're not going to be your #1 herb farmer, and they probably won't pass any loot.

Of course it's not foolproof, and some people are just flat-out worthless people who can't be molded at all...but that's what /gkick is for.