Basically, attack power has been added such that it completely compensates for the loss of AP from the agility ratio change. What this does, in effect, is make Lightning Reflexes utterly useless. A side benefit of this is that the stat is Attack Power, not Ranged Attack Power, meaning (at least once expansion hits, and I don't reroll), I'll probably be rocking maybe 1k or more melee AP with TSA on and critting cloth casters for very balanced amounts of damage with my Eye of Nerub.
Well, at least that's one Hunter concern for TBC resolved, assuming you're like me and never cared much for LR in the first place.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say LR is USELESS--15% agility is still a decent boost for certain gear setups, and still results in a high crit rate(higher if the hunter agi>crit conversion is lower now). I mean, a 5-point talent that gives some attack power and 4/5% to crit is still good. The trick, of course, will be finding gear with enough agility to support Lightning Reflexes, if all hunter gear has been balanced like this.
I still think that the Ranged AP nerf would be a poor solution to avoiding the 31/30 build, however.
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Basically, attack power has been added such that it completely compensates for the loss of AP from the agility ratio change. What this does, in effect, is make Lightning Reflexes utterly useless. A side benefit of this is that the stat is Attack Power, not Ranged Attack Power, meaning (at least once expansion hits, and I don't reroll), I'll probably be rocking maybe 1k or more melee AP with TSA on and critting cloth casters for very balanced amounts of damage with my Eye of Nerub.
Another side benefit, if the 'leaked' Hunter notes are to be believed and if I understand Hunter mechanics properly, is that the talent granting your pet up to 20% of your melee AP will be even stronger, leading me to believe some form of BM/MM will be the dominant DPS spec (if it isn't already?).
JUICE! Aww I'm sorry. Did... did anyone want some juice?
well the AP added doesn't *completely* compensate for lost AP when moving to 1:1 Agi:RAP - raw agi gets a bonus from BoK, raw AP does not. BoK is currently a large boost to my RAP, if more than half my RAP comes from AP, it'll be a much smaller bonus.
15% more agility is still a good PvP stat, with the reduced agi/crit ratio plus a 1.15 increase to agility, you will crit alot. Sadly, the new defense rating reduces crits will be on a PvP armor, so that gain may not be good enough to burst against good players.
However, LR may be a good spec for lower tier PvPers that can't get the good armor, and the CC sting is handy at times.
I wonder how much of hunter itemization is going to be rolled back to have agi/AP? Anyway, it just solidifies MM over Survival, and with pets scaling may make Survival the weakest tree.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Interesting. Both attack power and agility, similiar to the old PvP epic set. Along with the agi to RAP change this continues to marginalize LR. They (like me) obviously weren't happy with how lightning reflexes scaled and how it could hang pretty well with 31 marks builds. I'm hoping that with the new talents we see a much more significant difference in ranged DPS output between marksmen and survival. It just seems to me that if you're going to inviest 41 points into the marksmen tree, there should be no doubt that you're maximizing your ranged damage.
The other thing to note is that they haven't rebudgetted the stamina, not that this means they won't eventually. But if they don't, it seems unlikely that anyone will bother running Naxx after BC hits, which would be a shame.
well the AP added doesn't *completely* compensate for lost AP when moving to 1:1 Agi:RAP - raw agi gets a bonus from BoK, raw AP does not. BoK is currently a large boost to my RAP, if more than half my RAP comes from AP, it'll be a much smaller bonus.
That's like saying "raw agi gets a bonus from LR, raw AP does not" but since when were high RAP numbers the most important aspect of Hunter DPS? (Hint: LR spec = high RAP, MM spec = low RAP). Like I said, nerf to LR builds, buff to MM (possibly BM) builds with big 2 handers for PvP.
Very nice. I wasn't confident that they would update the Hunter sets, so this is good news to me. And like you mentioned Eej, that's going to be a huge buff to hunter melee attack power - roughly double current MAP from gear. I still doubt hunter melee will be truly viable - we have no good melee special attacks. C'mon, Wingclip is our highest DPS melee attack! That aside, it's nice information to have.
These changes make me wonder as to what they would do with items like Barb of the Sandreaver and the Eye of Nerub. These were put into the game (arguably) as 'hunter weapons'. They would still be killer melee DPS but the affect on ranged DPS via stats would drasticly change (unless they recieved a similar stat reallocation - which I doubt).
Either way they are still good but no longer a massive amount of RAP if unchanged.
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The agility weapon enchants (or any agility enchant in general) will be significantly less appealing to a hunter than it is now (though probably still the best choice on most slots).
I don't know if this has been brought up before, but if those stats are true, they are not applying the lower stamina item cost to pre expansion gear, as most have predicted. It is nice to know it has been confirmed. :)
Well, if what I have seen of the hunter talents is semi true, than my unbuffed RAP should remain the same.
It seems all talent builds that keep coming out for hunters always incooperate a % based RAP boost. If this is true, than this makes MM even better. As Eej said I was never a big fan of LR, UNTIL TBC was announced and then i realized how blatantly powerful that skill would be, so I am sorta sad that the option is kinda removed.
But, since I am a die hard MM fan, if the talent is true, then my crit rate went up a considerable amount and I won't lose much RAP.
I think I figured something out. Blizzard seems to be using alot more +agi and +ap on the same item. So if an item would normally have 30 agi, it would have 20 agi and 40 ap after reitemization. So, we now have the same ap as before, and since the crit ratio to agi is lowered as well(33:1), we have the same crit as before. Nothing has changed in our relative power to other classes yet.
We also get about a 21%-22% increase in our bows dps. Thats about an extra 20 dps in the 10 second rotation in current gear. So now we got a slight buff and perhaps we will scale better with new bows.
Whats better still(for pvp anyways) is that our melee attack power will be higher than our ranged attack power since our melee attack power is also effected by str(only an extra 50 melee ap or so), unless you have some rap items or are using aspect of hawk. This would yield some killer raptor crits, perhaps 2k or more.
Now that the good stuff is out of the way, lets talk about the bad. Rogues will be getting the same agi + ap items and (im guessing) will scale so much better than they are currently. They already can get a good 200 dps over us and with the new itemization rules should get even better. The difference in the two classes dps will be huge.
Now for a possiblility with the pet scaling we heard so little about. Since we will be getting 1500+ melee ap, our pets melee may be based on our melee ap and could recieve a huge bonus to their melee ap and become a 200 dps monster without talents. With frenzy, and other talents, out pet could get up to 600 dps while beastial wrath is active.
I think I figured something out. Blizzard seems to be using alot more +agi and +ap on the same item. So if an item would normally have 30 agi, it would have 20 agi and 40 ap after reitemization. So, we now have the same ap as before, and since the crit ratio to agi is lowered as well(33:1), we have the same crit as before. Nothing has changed in our relative power to other classes yet.
We also get about a 21%-22% increase in our bows dps. Thats about an extra 20 dps in the 10 second rotation in current gear. So now we got a slight buff and perhaps we will scale better with new bows.
Whats better still(for pvp anyways) is that our melee attack power will be higher than our ranged attack power since our melee attack power is also effected by str(only an extra 50 melee ap or so), unless you have some rap items or are using aspect of hawk. This would yield some killer raptor crits, perhaps 2k or more.
Now that the good stuff is out of the way, lets talk about the bad. Rogues will be getting the same agi + ap items and (im guessing) will scale so much better than they are currently. They already can get a good 200 dps over us and with the new itemization rules should get even better. The difference in the two classes dps will be huge.
Now for a possiblility with the pet scaling we heard so little about. Since we will be getting 1500+ melee ap, our pets melee may be based on our melee ap and could recieve a huge bonus to their melee ap and become a 200 dps monster without talents. With frenzy, and other talents, out pet could get up to 600 dps while beastial wrath is active.
Don't forget that we would lose some RAP due to the agility we have while naked not receiving the 2 for 1 anymore, and no raw AP to make that up with. I am hoping the % bonus to RAP is true, because *then* it would make up the difference for the RAP loss from this fact, while avoiding the whole 31/30 build they seem to be so afraid of.
Like I said, if, if, if. But if the talent is true, hawk will affect it, trueshot aura will affect it, raw RAP will affect it. It doesn't quite have the ability to scale as well as LR did, but it can get pretty close, since it will affect more of our abilities. (And god do I now really hope this change is true.)
I am actually getting excited about it, since right now I am thinking of a good portion of items I wear that are just AP (Master dragonslayer's Ring, Ring of the Qiraji Fury, Drake Fang Talisman, Barbed Choker, Hatchet of Sundered Bone) that will now be able to scale with me. Ohh the goodies!
Don't forget that we would lose some RAP due to the agility we have while naked not receiving the 2 for 1 anymore, and no raw AP to make that up with.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot all about that. Well, theres goes 120-130 rap for everyone. Perhaps we will get 1 rap for each str we have. Granted it would only be 50-60 rap, but it would reduce how much we would lose and would give us more from +stat enchants and even sockets when we put in some str jewels for the meta effect.
well the AP added doesn't *completely* compensate for lost AP when moving to 1:1 Agi:RAP - raw agi gets a bonus from BoK, raw AP does not. BoK is currently a large boost to my RAP, if more than half my RAP comes from AP, it'll be a much smaller bonus.
That's like saying "raw agi gets a bonus from LR, raw AP does not" but since when were high RAP numbers the most important aspect of Hunter DPS? (Hint: LR spec = high RAP, MM spec = low RAP). Like I said, nerf to LR builds, buff to MM (possibly BM) builds with big 2 handers for PvP.
The difference being that those high RAP numbers are important to a LR hunter's DPS, since those higher numbers (along with a higher crit %) are essentially what you are relying on to compete with RWS and Barrage, which, as we know, allows for lower RAP and still posts heavy hits.
And since BoK is obviously a percentile, the bonus to agility on a smaller number, is, well, smaller.
In regards to TBC, every thing is pure speculation, since looking at certain aspects of the changes without knowing all of them, is never going to be a fair assessment.
It will be interesting, to say the least, and I am eager to see what they come up with.
Don't forget that we would lose some RAP due to the agility we have while naked not receiving the 2 for 1 anymore, and no raw AP to make that up with.
Oh yeah, I completely forgot all about that. Well, theres goes 120-130 rap for everyone. Perhaps we will get 1 rap for each str we have. Granted it would only be 50-60 rap, but it would reduce how much we would lose and would give us more from +stat enchants and even sockets when we put in some str jewels for the meta effect.
Which is why I hope I am correct with the RAP talent. We will lose agility, and the extra agility we have from our character stats will not receive the 2 for 1 bonus, so the only way I can think of this working out is an RAP talent. Like others have said, the intent wasn't for a nerf, since hunters most certainly did not need one, but a way to discourage hunters from taking advantage of a 31/30 build, and they clearly have.
I think every class will have a high-dps build that revolves around 31 in one tree and 30 in another. Eventually people will realise that very, very few of the new talents are DPS boosts. They're mostly more utility and toys to play with.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
I think every class will have a high-dps build that revolves around 31 in one tree and 30 in another. Eventually people will realise that very, very few of the new talents are DPS boosts. They're mostly more utility and toys to play with.
I agree with you to a point. If the change to the agi:RAP ratio is true (since it has yet to be confirmed) then LR will be a very weak talent.
If Eej's item changes are correct I stand to lose about 80 - 100 agi alone from my sets, and now they only receive a 1 to 1 ratio. While our crit ratio will increase, we will be receiving technically less power than before. The bonus from LR will drop, since we are starting from a much lower base of agi as is, and since the added AP won't scale with it.
But who can say, bah so much theorycrafting. Wish they would just come out with it as they go along instead of getting tiny tidbits of info that you reflect on and wonder how it will affect you. :p
I doubt your conclusion on dps talents. Of course, 41 pointers are still being tweaked so the difference could change.
For Warriors, the 41 Arms makes abilities cost zero rage for 10 seconds (so at the end of the buff, you will have a full rage bar), very nice burst.
Rampage gives 200 Attack power for 30 seconds, and can be refreshed.
Locks can get another DoT, a scaling melee dps pet, or a AE stun/damage effect, and decent talents leading up to it (I like affliction the most).
Rogue ones are being tweaked, so they don't count.
Mages 41 pointers are still being tweaked.
Hunters/druids are still in development.
So 4 classes are still being worked on, of course some people can't see the power of them, they haven't been tuned yet.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Of course not, but it's important because it hints at the plan Blizzard has for future Hunter itemization (a mix between agi, crit rating and attack power). Also, it lets us know that we're not going to be gimped for grinding to 70.
Which is why I hope I am correct with the RAP talent. We will lose agility, and the extra agility we have from our character stats will not receive the 2 for 1 bonus, so the only way I can think of this working out is an RAP talent. Like others have said, the intent wasn't for a nerf, since hunters most certainly did not need one, but a way to discourage hunters from taking advantage of a 31/30 build, and they clearly have.
I really have to disagree that this is intended to keep you away from 0/31/30 builds. 31/30 is only a 6% increase in dps over 5/31/15 builds(with current ratios). Though LR and KI both should give about 11% increase in dps, you have to give up imp AotH which is about 5%.
I think this change is to give us a boost to melee and to compensate for scaling pets.
I doubt your conclusion on dps talents. Of course, 41 pointers are still being tweaked so the difference could change.
For Warriors, the 41 Arms makes abilities cost zero rage for 10 seconds (so at the end of the buff, you will have a full rage bar), very nice burst.
Rampage gives 200 Attack power for 30 seconds, and can be refreshed.
Locks can get another DoT, a scaling melee dps pet, or a AE stun/damage effect, and decent talents leading up to it (I like affliction the most).
Rogue ones are being tweaked, so they don't count.
Mages 41 pointers are still being tweaked.
Hunters/druids are still in development.
So 4 classes are still being worked on, of course some people can't see the power of them, they haven't been tuned yet.
I wouldn't say that ANY classes are done and aren't being worked on right now.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
09/20/06, 1:30 PM
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