How do you guys deal with warrior/rogue T3 loots? - Page 3

Mist · 09/21/06, 7:11 PM

Where are people buying/selling accounts of this value these days? Markeedragon?

Psi · 09/21/06, 7:12 PM

Originally Posted by Torael_7

Our three main tanks get priority on T3, then the rogues get a go at it on roughly the same basis as the secondary tanks. DPS warriors got co-priority with the rogues, more or less, on T2.5 in AQ40, so T3 is hands off for them until afterwards.

I think...

Pretty much dead on, I hear they wanna give another war 4/9 before rogues get thrown back in the loop.
But with our current setup you guys will get bracers soon! :)

Bibdy · 09/21/06, 7:19 PM

Shows how much loyalty those guys had to the guild, huh?

probiscus · 09/21/06, 7:25 PM

People have more money than brains I guess.

Also, we can probably thank server transfers for the explosion in prices.

Kalman · 09/21/06, 7:58 PM

I don't think we had any official priority, rogues were just smart enough to let the first few of a given piece go to the tanks.

cladnin · 09/21/06, 8:02 PM

I keep reading about 4/9dn being nice, but overrated. We had no super special priority, I will say though, I'm glad our rogues have some gear too. Loatheb with 4/9bs is <3. Last week we had one of our 4/9+ rogues keylogged and we wiped to Loatheb at 1% (he was in Bloodfang :(). A good mixture of both certainly helps, MT gear seems most important; Broken Reels are a makeshift save for 4h that doesn't cost a giant wad of your armors. Obviously not a replacement to the set bonus (and works well along side).

Elendril · 09/21/06, 8:04 PM

we give them to apps!

well, bracers at least. we've gotten so many rogue/warrior bracers that we gave the pair that dropped last night to a warrior app since everyone had them already. i have two of the tier 3 hybrid shoulder pieces in my bank, too. maybe i'll craft them for different enchants! :(

Kalman · 09/21/06, 8:05 PM

Elendril: I'm still an app, and I'm wearing Bonescythe shoulders now. 10 of them have dropped, total.

Now, boots...

snurre · 09/21/06, 8:11 PM

We've gotten so few drops, only one of our warrs have two pieces. :(

Bekah · 09/21/06, 8:13 PM

No specific priority, but the warriors generally had higher dkp to start and the rogues understand 4hm and generally havn't fought for pieces. We've got one rogue in 2/9 I think and the rest has gone to warriors. 1 at 5/9, 1 at 4/9, 1 at 3/9, and I think 1 or 2 pieces on 2 others. By the reverse- most rogues are getting decked out in 2.5 while only one or two warriors are nibbling on that (mostly the dps warriors).

As for the caster pieces, our system is favoring the priests for them pretty heavily since most priests havn't seen more than one or two upgrades since BWL and the caster dps is pretty much all decked in 3 to 5 pieces of 2.5. The caster dps has been spending thier points pretty heavily over the last few months, while most healers have just been chilling out ho-hum and taking what upgrades there are (and there aren't many that ahve dropped- although most of us have fankriss robes lol) for super cheap in AQ40. Same deal with the druids/paladins and hunters. It's pretty much a healer feast after famine. ^.^

We have no restrictions or priorities assigned. We don't, however, protect our players from absolute ridicule by thier guild mates for poor loot decisions- or tolerate truely stupid looting (aaaah yes. The druid who wanted a Perdition's and thought that "Black Ash Robe" was a cloak.... he didn't last long.). It's nice to not have to police loot decisions- as a general rule our players do it for us. Peer pressure is wonderful.

diospadre · 09/21/06, 8:18 PM

6/9 DN warrior for sale pst

Elendril · 09/21/06, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

Elendril: I'm still an app, and I'm wearing Bonescythe shoulders now. 10 of them have dropped, total.

Now, boots...

we bring an average of 12 hybrids per raid, and we've gotten something like 17 hybrid shoulders. to the contrary, we've gotten only 2 hybrid pants, and we're running out of warriors to give those to since rogues aren't really interested :-/

Xard · 09/21/06, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Oaken

Originally Posted by Xard

In general as a rogue if my guild said "too bad no tier 3 for you until we gear up our seventy billion offtanks" I wouldn't stick around unless some other concessions are made.

Just curious. How do you feel about Druids bidding on non-healing leather?

well are you talking about clear dps leather, or are you talking about bear/hybrid gear?

Given how MUCH feral loot drops in AQ40, I don't see there every being a problem really between rogues and druids anymore. There are a billion pieces with tons of stam and huge amounts of str vs agi, and these pieces will naturally go to druids because unless a rogue really wants a gimp piece for PvP (pretty rare honestly) he isn't going to take it. In our guild we have bear gear for a number of druids, and even have one druid who has some of the best bear tanking gear available and is our 3rd Patch offtank with ~15k AC. However most of the time he heals and he gears accordingly

However, druids who want to start bidding on every dps leather drop even though its an excellent piece for its slot for a rogue (boots of the shadow flame as a strong example, qiraji execution bracers and vest of swift execution as weaker ones) would be something I'd frown upon, simply because cat form dps has never been shown to be competitive on a mathematical scale, though I'm still waiting to hear from the jury (and/or mathematicians) about how things have changed with Ap scaling.

Again though as I said, there is an absurd amount of good feral gear that drops in AQ40, I can't imagine some druid would really have a rogue trying to outbid him on gloves with 28 str but only 6 stam.

I actually think the really interesting question here would be feral bear/cat gear for druids vs warriors. Fury warriors bidding on the abovementioned bracers and gloves, as well as ghoul skin tunic in Naxx, would be a more interesting arguement. Since druids and warriors share the same important stats (str) I would actually see more competition here.

Oaken · 09/22/06, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Xard

However, druids who want to start bidding on every dps leather drop even though its an excellent piece for its slot for a rogue (boots of the shadow flame as a strong example, qiraji execution bracers and vest of swift execution as weaker ones) would be something I'd frown upon, simply because cat form dps has never been shown to be competitive on a mathematical scale, though I'm still waiting to hear from the jury (and/or mathematicians) about how things have changed with Ap scaling.

I don't actually disagree with you. Its just an interesting point I bring up when I see it. Your argument about dps leather going to rogues first is based on the premise that dps leather benefits the raid more in the hands of rogues. Makes sense. One would hope that the people making that argument though would also look at Dreadnaught for a handful of prot warriors and realize that the same priority argument applies to them as well.

Sometimes they don't though...

Xard · 09/22/06, 2:08 AM

Thats a poor argument though, because bonescythe helps the rogues as well. As has been often stated on these boards, dps is king. Saying that druids should get feral cat form loot instead of rogues specifically adds NOTHING to the guild because druids are never in cat form (as opposed to bear form loot which I have already stated no rogues bid on) but subtracts from the guild in terms of rogue dps progression.

Meanwhile, the relative merits of Bonescythe vs Dreadnaught could be argued until you're blue in the face, ranging from how much the bonus is to how many people the bonus helps, etc. etc. Because rogues getting bonescythe is still helping the guild and warriors getting dreadnaught is still helping the guild, your choice depends on your (or your guild's) relative weight of these two factors.

As I said, I'm fine with warriors getting all the dreadnaught in a guild because it would help the guild immensely. However a guild which completely blanks out an entire class from tier 3 without making any other tradeoffs seems like the kind of guild I wouldn't want to be in. As stated by multiple people, most guilds give prio on DN to warriors, and then give rogues prio on DD because both are good upgrades for rogues while only one is a good upgrade for warriors. I think thats fair and I'd been fine with it as a rogue, though as a class that bids against rogues on tier 2.5, I might be worried myself because esp. as a healer class I would want 2.5 at this point in order to level when the expac comes.

Oaken · 09/22/06, 8:25 AM

Originally Posted by Xard

As I said, I'm fine with warriors getting all the dreadnaught in a guild because it would help the guild immensely. However a guild which completely blanks out an entire class from tier 3 without making any other tradeoffs seems like the kind of guild I wouldn't want to be in. As stated by multiple people, most guilds give prio on DN to warriors, and then give rogues prio on DD because both are good upgrades for rogues while only one is a good upgrade for warriors. I think thats fair and I'd been fine with it as a rogue, though as a class that bids against rogues on tier 2.5, I might be worried myself because esp. as a healer class I would want 2.5 at this point in order to level when the expac comes.

Meh. You think its fair because you aren't a healing class. Like I said, for the purpose of guild advancement, I'm not arguing Druids should get dps leather over rogues. Its clear where the benefit to the guild lies. If I were to reword what you are saying it is

"Rogues get priority because it helps us progress, Druids can stfu."

You go on to agree that Dreadnaught should also go Warriors first for the purpose of guild advancement. If I were to reword what you said though it would be

"Warriors get priority because it helps us progress, but you have to give Rogues something in return or we'll quit."

I'm just having a bit of trouble reconciling "...Druids can stfu." and "...but you have to give Rogues something in return or we'll quit." You expect Druids to take one for the team in the name of progression. You expect Rogues to be well-compensated when they have to take one for the team. There is a contradiction there. Can you see it?

Tel · 09/22/06, 9:03 AM

Originally Posted by Oaken

I'm just having a bit of trouble reconciling "...Druids can stfu." and "...but you have to give Rogues something in return or we'll quit." You expect Druids to take one for the team in the name of progression. You expect Rogues to be well-compensated when they have to take one for the team. There is a contradiction there. Can you see it?

There is no contradiction there im afraid, at least not in the terms you're thinking. In a raiding guild you expect at least the majority of druids to want to heal and to understand that at the moment that is their biggest contribution to the raid. Their ability to heal isnt affected by being able to pick up dps leather.

Rogues ability to perform our role in raids is directly affected by having to pass on t3, thus to try and keep the raid balanced somewhat (with regards to dps vs ease of keeping tank alive) it makes sense to try and balance that out a bit by giving rogues some priority on other dps drops. Its not a case of rogues wanting something in return for passing. Its a case of rogues ability to perform in raids being hampered to a noticable extent by passing, thus to try and keep the raid dps up to par prio is given on dps items they can take they dont hamper raid ability for other classes, DD being the most obvious example of this.

Oaken · 09/22/06, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Tel

Its not a case of rogues wanting something in return for passing. Its a case of rogues ability to perform in raids being hampered to a noticable extent by passing, thus to try and keep the raid dps up to par prio is given on dps items they can take they dont hamper raid ability for other classes, DD being the most obvious example of this.

You've come around to a statement I agree with. If you can argue that Rogues should get Deathdealer because it is more beneficial to raids than Priests in Oracle, Warriors in Conqueror's, or Hunters in Striker's, more power to you. Its just another example of loot going where it can benefit the raid the most. There's nothing wrong with that.

But what I read into your first post is that you should get DD as a reward for passing on Bonescythe. When I see statements like "...I wouldn't stick around unless some other concessions are made" and "...alienating an entire class is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot" your initial argument came across very much as "You can't ask rogues to pass on loot - even if it is the right decision for progression - unless you compensate me". That's hypocritical. If you expect other classes to pass for you, be prepared to make the same sacrifice for Warriors. Because if Blizzard had itemized Conqueror's and Striker's to be fantastic upgrades for dps Warriors and Hunters, I'd have told you to pass on DreadNaught and bid equally against dps Warriors and Hunters on T2.5. Would that be unfair? Probably. But we're not talking about fair here, we're talking about a dynamic that puts guild progression ahead of personal loot.

Tel · 09/22/06, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Oaken

Because if Blizzard had itemized Conqueror's and Striker's to be fantastic upgrades for dps Warriors and Hunters, I'd have told you to pass on DreadNaught and bid equally against dps Warriors and Hunters on T2.5.

I'd have to agree here, its only really the fact that its not a good raiding upgrade for any of the people competing with rogues on DD that the system works ok this way. Otherwise it would simply be a case of rogues/hunter/warriors etc having equal bidding rights on t2.5.

Infact in my guild we dont assign loot priority on T2.5 at all, its a case of whoever wants it can bid. But the guild have been very good with regards to the fact that rogues have been passing in the name of guild progression and letting us have pretty much exclusive access to as much T2.5 as we need till we can get BS :) Its nice when people use common sense rather than rules to work it all out, saves me a job :D

Gyshall · 09/22/06, 11:34 AM

We've had almost 4 or 5 rogues get their BS pieces off the first four or five bosses we farm in Naxx, due them being higher on DKP than all of the warriors in my guild (including myself :( ). What sucks is that rogues tend to have one set of gear that they bid on, that set being a DPS one, where warriors spend DKP on weapons, DPS gear, and tanking gear, shields, etc. That, plus some incredibly bad drop rates on the melee pieces of gear makes me a sad panda, but DKP is DKP.

Tel · 09/22/06, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Gyshall

We've had almost 4 or 5 rogues get their BS pieces off the first four or five bosses we farm in Naxx, due them being higher on DKP than all of the warriors in my guild (including myself :( ). What sucks is that rogues tend to have one set of gear that they bid on, that set being a DPS one, where warriors spend DKP on weapons, DPS gear, and tanking gear, shields, etc. That, plus some incredibly bad drop rates on the melee pieces of gear makes me a sad panda, but DKP is DKP.

Out of interest, how far through naxx have you got like this, and have your tanks gear caused any major issues with regards to progression yet?

• Wodin · 09/22/06, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

The only fights I can think of where Fire mages vastly rape our rogues are Thaddius and Loatheb. Those encounters also are incredibly stacked towards Fire mage victory however.

Ugh, sorry, for not getting back to this thread sooner. Life has been crazy.

Anyways, you're correct that two of the fights I was thinking of are Thaddius and Loatheb, with Gluth(when we have spare mages who DPS) and Gothik as secondary examples. Rogues win spider wing(modulo Anub where there's a heavy AE component), Noth, and Rasuvious. It's a push on the rest.

Gyshall · 09/22/06, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Tel

Originally Posted by Gyshall

We've had almost 4 or 5 rogues get their BS pieces off the first four or five bosses we farm in Naxx, due them being higher on DKP than all of the warriors in my guild (including myself :( ). What sucks is that rogues tend to have one set of gear that they bid on, that set being a DPS one, where warriors spend DKP on weapons, DPS gear, and tanking gear, shields, etc. That, plus some incredibly bad drop rates on the melee pieces of gear makes me a sad panda, but DKP is DKP.

Out of interest, how far through naxx have you got like this, and have your tanks gear caused any major issues with regards to progression yet?

Not at all, we've got four fully geared BWL tanks, we all have pieces of Conq and such, and we've killed Maexxna with relative ease. We've stopped working on Patchwerk to focus our attention on Ouro/Viscidus for the time, and after that (once we have geared our four MTs with the farmable Dreadnaught available to us) we'll be working on Patchwerk.

One might argue that the best defense is a strong offense, which is sometimes the case, not always :P

Brennik · 09/22/06, 9:23 PM

Originally Posted by Wodin

We geared out four tanks with 4/9, then opened up loot to rogues as well. In retrospect, we should have geared out 8 tanks with 4/9 first.

I'd like more opinions on this. People keep saying you don't need eight warriors in DN to beat the encounter and I'm inclined to believe them. But does having eight 4/9 DN warriors make 4 Horsemen that much more "trivial" or is the sweet spot somewhere lower? At six warriors? Enough Broken Reels and it won't matter?

The point on rogue dps being high enough with just T2.5 and the weapon upgrades on the select few encounters where it actually matters is an interesting one too...

probiscus · 09/22/06, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Brennik

I'd like more opinions on this.

How many more?

There is plenty of information on this site which has helped numerous guilds. I think the generic answer is going to be "the more tanks you have in more DN, the better off you'll be". If you choose to jerry rig it with ZG reels, power to you, it *can* work, as has been illustrated by any number of guilds posting in this thread.

So, how many more opinions do you want?