GoA vs Windfury in a rogue/warrior mix DPS group

pinkius · 09/21/06, 2:48 PM

Ok, the rogues say they gain about 18 DPS using GoA over WF so the shamen in my guild are only dropping GoA in DPS groups, completely screwing over the warriors. I've got no problem with it if it's upping raid DPS, but I think we're losing DPS. Without windfury warriors HAVE to be losing more than 18 DPS no? Has anyone done testing on this? Some solid results/evidence would be awesome.

Durnitol · 09/21/06, 3:01 PM

I am one of the shamans in question and we've been debating this a great deal. The latest conclusion is that if a Warrior is in the group, then the difference between the benefit the rogues get with GoA versus WF is less than the benefit Warriors get with WF. But does this change if there are 3 rogues?

We've seen threads on Warrior numbers and we've seen threads on rogue numbers, but what about both of them in the same group? Which totem is better?

Boevis · 09/21/06, 3:02 PM

Warrior Damage Calc:
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7030
Rogue Damage Calc:
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=6692

In short: Windfury is ~= GoA for every flavor of Rogue, with GoA being better for undergeared rogues, and Windfury being better for well geared rogues. You should never be seeing a difference of more than 10 DPS either way for Rogues. At the top end of gear, Windfury represents a 100+ DPS difference for warriors, GoA represents about 20.

Minotas · 09/21/06, 3:02 PM

I think the answer to this would have a lot to do with what sort of gear the warriors and rogues are using. For example, in a group with dagger rogues and d/w fury warriors, WF would be giving the least benefit, while in a group of 2h warriors and sword rogues, the results might be somewhat different.

I was actually wondering something similar regarding GoA/WF dps. That is, would four hunters get more dps from GoA than four warriors/rogues would from WF? I'm inclined to think WF would blow GoA away, but I've got no hard evidence to support that assertion and no time to produce said evidence.

Edit: Owned by Boevis

Erongg · 09/21/06, 3:03 PM

Check out Chalon's spreadsheet and compare GoA + MH poison to WF. I found them to be about the same (plus or minus 5 DPS in my experience, depending on gear level and spec). So it doesn't matter much to rogues, but to warriors the Windfury buff is awesome, so that's what you go with.

Quasar · 09/21/06, 3:04 PM

I usually make the decision to drop GOA instead of WF with a Warrior in the group in situations where they're facing Cleaves and other things that make the extra Dodge a little more valuable in my eyes than the DPS. Or when I want to be selfish and get actual use for myself out of my air totem >.>

Thorb · 09/21/06, 3:07 PM

Maybe someone like Kalman can answer but last I checked, WF was doing about equal for rogues assuming rogues using goa would also poisons.

For warriors it depend but it's in the order of 20-25% more dps. So if I'm doing 400 dps before WF, I may do up to 475-500 dps after WF meaning that it's possible for even 3 rogues to counterbalance this (I also think the 18 dps number is dubious). It might be different for the rogue built that get more combo from crits but not sure.

Try to make warrior groups for using WF, screwing rogues out of battle shout maybe. Or try to convince the raid leader to make the shaman and rogues less retarded.

pinkius · 09/21/06, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

Maybe someone like Kalman can answer but last I checked, WF was doing about equal for rogues assuming rogues using goa would also poisons.

For warriors it depend but it's in the order of 20-25% more dps. So if I'm doing 400 dps before WF, I may do up to 475-500 dps after WF meaning that it's possible for even 3 rogues to counterbalance this (I also think the 18 dps number is dubious). It might be different for the rogue built that get more combo from crits but not sure.

Try to make warrior groups for using WF, screwing rogues out of battle shout maybe. Or try to convince the raid leader to make the shaman and rogues less retarded.

Word

Boevis · 09/21/06, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thorb

Maybe someone like Kalman can answer but last I checked, WF was doing about equal for rogues assuming rogues using goa would also poisons.

For warriors it depend but it's in the order of 20-25% more dps. So if I'm doing 400 dps before WF, I may do up to 475-500 dps after WF meaning that it's possible for even 3 rogues to counterbalance this (I also think the 18 dps number is dubious). It might be different for the rogue built that get more combo from crits but not sure.

Try to make warrior groups for using WF, screwing rogues out of battle shout maybe. Or try to convince the raid leader to make the shaman and rogues less retarded.

At the risk of calling people retards, claiming that GoA is better for rogues because they're SF spec (combo points from crits) is a lot like claiming +22 Int is better for Druids on healing weapons because they're Feral Spec (+20% Int), or Hunters claiming Barb of the Sand Reaver is better than Silithid Claw + FoTF because they're LR Spec (+15% Agi). Using a crappy spec to begin with doesn't make using a crappy buff better.

With the discussion of various gear levels:
Taking a warrior with just about the best of BWL and Breastplate of Annihilation + crafted gear (not an unreasonable combination) against 10% damage reduction (a high number assuming 5 sunders, FF, CoR) GoA + Crit Stones: 782 DPS. Windfury: 873 DPS. 90 DPS Difference.
Rank10 Set, rest from 20 Mans or lower: GoA+Stones: 670 DPS. Windfury: 735 DPS. 65 Difference.

Even at pathetically low gear levels, GoA will never outperform Windfury on rogues by the 22 DPS needed to make GoA better.

Maybe if it's a group with a Feral Druid in it. :lol: