I've been an EJ forums lurker since sometime in '05, and I never fail to find helpful information and number crunching here. Seems like a hangout for some of the very best and brightest min-maxers and tacticians in the endgame today, so I thought I'd submit this as a bit of a general question and see what more experienced minds than mine have to say.
I started WoW in closed beta and have played a variety of characters to 60 and in endgame, both as healing/support roles, as a MT for a guild through AQ40, and as dps. The one class that I've never raided with is rogue, and I have recently rolled one with a group of collected friends from other endgame guilds that have started up horde-side on a new server. Which brings me in a roundabout fashion to my question:
Given that I will not have access to AQ40/Naxx gear and weapons for a long time, likely at least three months, what sort of gear wishlist is even *reasonable* for me to look at in the meantime? If I were on a server that has the gates open and has guilds pounding on KT's door, it would be a bit different. The way things are now, I'll be in NS at best by the time TBC hits, and everything conceivably shifts in terms of what instances are worth doing and the operation of rogues in raids.
More or less I'm looking for nudges in the right direction, not hand holding. Most of the rogues here probably remember what their spec and gear were like when they were still in the weekly MC / Ony / world bosses clear mode and working on BWL. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Any resources that experienced PvE rogues have found useful as they've developed their characters would be great as well.
I'll go sit in the corner and hope my bobber dips in the water with an epic response or two. Or just some flames. Work's boring enough that I'd find those amusing too.
With a combination of ctprofiles, wow.allakhazam.com or thottbot.com - you should be able to build yourself a decent profile based on the gear you have access to.
Eh, that's a pretty reasonable question I don't think anyone would flame you for it. Hardcore "reroll" guilds have killed Nef in under a month, so I think that expecting access to Nef loot + the first half of AQ40 is probably reasonable(assuming that you guys are approaching it more casually).
I was combat swords/fists for that particular gear epoch, mostly because I had a Vis'kag which treated me really well for a very long time. It's fun and fairly capable in PvP, and an excellent PvE spec.
So figure something like 2-4/8 Bloodfang, 4-5/8 NS, Vis'kag/Maladath, DFT + HoJ as a reasonable goal, with any AQ or Naxx loot as icing on the cake.
My rogue gear isn't very hard to obtain at all. Looking at the instances you're going to be sticking to, I'd stick with a pretty standard 15/31/5 combat dagger w/ AR and WepEx spec just to maximize your DPS output. While you could play around w/ SF or hemo, at that level gear, and in those instances the nuances of those two alternate specs won't really come to the forefront as much - as most of the fights in the "older" instances are just tank-n-spank. For which combat daggers shines.
Crap, figured "reply" would have showed my profile. I know the edit will...
As far as resources, I tried to plan my DKP expenditures around whatever Chalon's (as maintained by Kalman and Pf) spreadsheets indicated would actually be worthwhile. Ie. No BF boots/shoulders, and crap like that.
Much appreciated. Does anyone happen to have a link to the spreadsheet in question? In the two rogues I played at 60, which admittedly never stepped out of blue gear, I was sword/mace simply because those were the best options I had avilable to me at the time. Combat daggers sounds fun especially given hybrid viability in pvp and PvE. I do PvP on occasion, but at this point obviously endgame progression is the top priority. We don't want to be three instances behind when TBC hits.
Again, thanks for the responses. Also, does anyone have a favorite rogue PvE video showing a particularly unique or clever UI? I'm messing around with mine at the moment, pulling things from my collection of some 300+ mods from previous characters, and want something that will help with clutter while still keeping me on top of all that's going on in the raid.
You should familiarize yourself with shadowpanther.net, which converts all stats on pieces of armor that a rogue could expect to use into AEP (agility equivalence points). It also lists where said armor drops, and has all items linked to the thottbot database for further information.
That combined with spreadsheets was how I min-maxed my gear. Disclaimer: Not everyone may agree with shadowpanther's methods, but I've found them to be a fairly reliable tool, especially when combined with kalman's spreadsheet.
Actually I would recommend steering clear of combat daggers in MC, just because you won't have the gear. While most of the fights are tank and spank, combat daggers ONLY gets damage from your gear, there are 0 other bonuses. My damage breakdown is often quite literally 65% melee, 35% backstab, absolutely nothing else. Thus, without the gear to back it up I think the build will be somewhat weak.
What I would recommend is a seal fate daggers build, probably like 30/15/5 or something similar. definitely get imp poisons for better instant poison application, and get precision to give you a strong boost to your dps. The flat damage from poisons combined with the 5/5/3 rotation with seal fate means you get an evi in there every once in a while, and those flat sources of damage, especially with mediocre gear, will account for a whole lot.
Once you get about halfway through BWL or something and you're putting together some decent dps stats, make the swap over to combat daggers. Before then, though, I think seal fate will serve you better, as well as giving you similar gear targets as CD so you won't have to change. I will say that swords is always a fine build as well and is really some of the best of both worlds, but then you'll spend more dkp going daggers afterwards which you might not want to do.
Much appreciated. Does anyone happen to have a link to the spreadsheet in question?
The very first sticky post has lists to sorts of good stuff. There you will find the Rogue dps spreadsheet (be warned, the first post is outdated, Pf updated the spreadsheet, but it isn't found on page 1, it is usually found on the last page of thread).
Also you can go to the UI thread, where many Rogues have posted what they feel is a good UI, and lots of talk about mods.
Shadowpanther is a decent site to get you started with blues, but once you have some epics, the AEP numbers it gives you are not accurate, since having different levels of stats changes things in relation to another thing.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
As to the dkp question, we are actually loot council. Love it or hate it as you will, this happens to be a fairly close-knit group that have been together for a long time. As it stands, if I min-max well enough to consistently manage #1 or 2 on dps meters without pulling aggro or doing anything stupid / noob-ish, I will be compensated with the better out of the drops we receive. Not taking priority over tanks of course, but in the classic fury war vs. rogue competition, if I win, I score. Just to clarify.
I've also heard horror stories about Vis'Kag drops. Is the RNG not very kind to that weapon?
There is nothing horribly wrong with AEP, just like there is nothing horribly wrong with Newtonian physics.
Technically, neither is completely accurate, but they are close enough approximations. And they are much easier to learn first than their alternatives.
1) avoid shadowpanther and any mention of "AEP" - it's shit.
2) combat daggers owns faces in MC - using GGR/bonescraper/ZG set gear I was able to out DPS (in MC and BWL) predominantly T2/DFT/CHT rogues. While some of that is effort, more is the spec and knowing how to play it. Also at the shitty levels of hit that we're talking about (the gear I was wearing at the time) you shouldn't be able to get 65% white damage. The gear this guy's looking at (with precision) will probably place him around 13% hit or so. If you're getting 65% white damage with that much +hit, your tanks suck, you forgot a couple talent points, or you're slacking. The only spec this guy should be considering if his main focus is DPS in MC/BWL/ZG/AQ20 is combat daggers. SF shouldn't really even enter the picture.
Razuvius could be killed by 38 monkeys as long as you had two decent priests
/agree. We did it with 27 last night, with quite a few undergeard folks.
avoid shadowpanther and any mention of "AEP" - it's shit.
100% disagree.
While rogues who have spend several years mastering their knowledge of their class mechanics know why there are flaws, somebody new to rogues knows so little that shadowpanther and AEP are going to be excellent reasources to start learning from.
The game hasn't been out several years. The spreadsheets previously referred to will give *any* rogue all the information they need for THE spec they should be using in the instances this gentleman mentions.
It's best not to go down the road of AEP.
Use the spreadsheets, play around w/ gear, see what works and figure out why. However, understand what the spreadsheets do and don't do. Chalon's models 5CP SnD cycles - so sustained DPS. It doesn't measure your dps getting up to the 5 cp cycle, nor does it measure fights that don't go on in perpetuity. So, they won't tell you how to play/excel at being a rogue, but they will help you choose your gear - which is what this thread's about I believe.
Chalon's Spreadsheet will be your bread and butter for making gear choices (assuming you are combat daggers or combat swords) - make sure and check out the end of the thread where Pf has graciously been updating the spreadsheet.
Assuming your guild is already farming MC and Ony, there are quite a few gear options available to you. Obviously NS is a good thing to be farming out of MC, but otherwise, off the top of my head, Striker's Mark and Quick Strike Ring are remarkably good rogue MC loots. Striker's Mark is better than anything out of MC/20mans/BWL, and even AQ40 up until Larvae of the Great Worm off Ouro I believe (someone correct me if there's a better ranged item previous to that), and Quick Strike Ring provides equivalent dps to the exalted Brood of Noz rep ring.
There's a lot of great loot from the 20man instances. Boots of the Vanguard from AQ20 provide superior dps to NS boots. The Zandalar Madcap's Tunic out of ZG actually squeezes out a bit more dps than the NS Chest, and the 2 peice ZG set bonus (+20ap) actually makes wearing 2 pcs of ZG gear (out of Chest/Bracers/Shoulders) equivalent to wearing BF in those slots. Until you get BF bracers and chest, you should probably be wearing 2 pcs of those 3 main ZG items to maximize dps, but make sure and check out the spreadsheet to verify this. Also, the Seal/Band of Jin ring set out of ZG is remarkably good, and the Eye of Hakkar is a slight upgrade from Ony's Tooth.
If you're a PvP'er there are also a lot more options available to you. Obviously AV is a great BG to grind to exalted, Don Julio's ring is not shabby at all, and if you're combat daggers the epic dagger from exalted is only a marginal step below the Gutgore Ripper. Forest Stalker's Bracers from WSG provide better dps than NS bracers. The exalted shoulders from AB are equivalent to NS Shoulders, and the exalted cloak is equivalent to the Cloak of Shrouded Mists off of Rag.
If you are grinding exalted with CC you can pick up some good stuff there as well. If you have the quest item from AQ20, you can grab the Dagger of Veiled Shadows, which is marginally better as an OH than Dragonfang Blade. The Earthstrike is also a decent trinket for burst dmg (especially when used in conjunction with AR+BF). Other trinkets you should have are Blackhand's Breadth from the Ony key quest chain, and the Hand of Justice. You can farm the HoJ off the Emperor in BRD relatively easily with an *intelligent* 3man rogue team.
If you're combat swords you'll have to bug someone else for itemization hints, but if you're combat daggers I can tell you that for your MH the Perdition Blade will be your best choice until the Pugio out of AQ40, and for your OH the Dragonfang Blade actually out-performs Core Hound Tooth (only for a *combat* spec with Duel Wield - and again Dagger of Veiled Shadows is actually slightly better than DFB).
Anyways, there's a lot of other itemization options available as well. Some of my recommendations might be off considering the fact that I'm basing this off of my gear/talent setup - and yours could be different enough to alter some choices. When in doubt, consult the spreadsheet.
EDIT: Wow, in the time it took me to type that there were 12 replies posted. Please excuse me if any of my info was just a rehash of what some of the other quicker typists spelled out.
a bit off topic, but as a raider that has never gotten another character above lvl 40, i was just wondering which of the many classes you have played/raided with was your favorite (or least favorite)? Its such a foreign idea to me to have experiences for a single fight from every angle, having only ever been a priest (never even controlled a friends or guild mates character during a fight).
AEP and Spreadsheets both have their place, and both have their shortcomings.
AEP is remarkably inefficient for determining PvE dps (look at where the AEP lists rank Taunt Dragonhide Shoulders, for example). The spreadsheet is where it’s at for determining which gear choices are going to net you more dps vs. lvl63 mobs (or raid boss mobs). The spreadsheet is a fluid thing - it knows exactly how much crit, AP, and +hit you have, and all these things scale together so that, for example, the more crit you have, the more bang you’re going to get out of your AP, and etc. A static list like AEP simply cannot account for that, which is largely the reason why most PvE rogues shit all over AEP. And rightfully so, AEP is not for PvE.
The creator of AEP was a PvP’er (if you can consider duel botting to be PvP‘ing), and that’s what the AEP lists are for. The spreadsheet is for pure DPS, and things like stamina, magical resists, and armor on your gear do not effect your dps, but AEP gives gear points for these “survivability" stats. And it would be silly to try and come up with a dps spreadsheet for PvP, since PvP is more about control than dps. Some folks even feel the spreadsheets are becoming as silly as the AEP lists once were, since very few raid encounters are traditional “tank and spank" scenarios where you truly get to a sustained dps cycle.
For my money I’d trust a spreadsheet long before I trusted an agility conversion list like AEP, even if I went and edited out all the “survivability" stats from the list in order to try and make it a pure PvE dps list. But even the spreadsheet has to be taken with a grain of salt.
No one has yet mentioned +weaponskill insofar as itemization for the OP.
Probably the single most important stat you can find on your gear is +Dagger or +Swords. Check out how much dps you gain in the combat dagger spreadsheet with the Weapon Expertise skill. Also check out what www.wowwiki.com has to say about glancing blows in order to understand the benefit of +weaponskill.
Essentially, you want to try and get your weaponskill up to 310 for boss encounters (or for mobs lvl 63), or as close to 310 without going over (going over 310 will still net you a little +crit/+hit/etc, but it will no longer server to reduce the dmg lost from glancing blows). If you’re a sword rogue, you’re SOL until your guild starts dropping Broodlord in BWL for Maladath. If you’re a dagger rogue, you can grab the Aged Core Leather Gloves in MC (superior to Bonescythe Gloves for dps vs. a lvl63), or you can grab the Muggers Belt from DM north (equivalent to the belt off of C’Thin for dps vs. a lvl63). Your last and least likely option (but still an option) is the Circlet of Resltess Dreams off Emeriss.
Getting your +weaponskill to 310 for boss encounters is probably the most important thing you can do to boost your dps.
As a side note: Does anyone know where Billmaan’s original discovery, “Glancing Blows and You," can be found now that WoW changed over their forums and wiped all the old stickies?
combat daggers is the way to go for raid dps. With that in mind aged core leather gloves are your best friend. most the other potential gear has been named already. The AEP system is really a PvP oriented gear rating system imo. Use the spreadsheets and test stuff yourself.
To the question about what class people prefer to play, I've played a priest through MC, a hunter through BWL and my main is a rogue which we're on 4H atm. Personally I enjoy the rogue the most. My priest was my main till my rogue hit 60 and and changed and have never gone back (The hunter raiding experience has always been as an alt). I may have lost interest in playing my priest because I was getting burned out, idk. It really is a preference thing. If you aren't enjoying Priest level an alt. You'll know if you like the class or not by the time you're 60.
a bit off topic, but as a raider that has never gotten another character above lvl 40, i was just wondering which of the many classes you have played/raided with was your favorite (or least favorite)? Its such a foreign idea to me to have experiences for a single fight from every angle, having only ever been a priest (never even controlled a friends or guild mates character during a fight).
To be honest, the reason I've played so many classes in raiding situations is the same reason I love WoW in general. Believe it or not, once you play multiple classes you start to realize that this is about the closest thing to a perfectly balanced game that can be created that has a multiplicity of classes and a wide variety of skills. The constant tweaking shows a tremendous commitment to this on the part of the developers as well.
IMHO, WoW in end game PvE is so role-based that the choice is more what you want to do than what you want to 'be'. For example, if you enjoy the feeling of saving the tank with a clutch heal, seeing the ebb and flow of health levels over the whole raid, and preventing a wipe with a few crits on key players, then you will enjoy a priest, druid, paladin, or shaman. I've enjoyed each of those.
If you feel left out unless you're the center of attention, the focal point of the entire raid, the lynch pin that everyone depends on - if you like pressure and being the first yelled at in a wipe, then play a tank! It's a tremendous rush, although the demands on you in terms of play-skill as well as knowledge of encounters is incredibly high, as I'm sure any tanks here would.
DPS is its own ball of wax. Sometimes it can be boring, but there are just those moments when your crits are flying and you feel like you and you alone are responsible for taking some monstrosity down and stealing its phat lewts that are quite satisfying. I've enjoyed my hunter far more than I thought I would when I created the character, and I feel the same will be true of this rogue. Especially given that I've never touched epic gear as a rogue - that will be fascinating.
So in a circuitous way, I've answered your question by saying that there is no 'most fun class' for me. I've enjoyed everything I've played, at the time I've played it, and I think the class decision boils down to personal taste.
Not trying to dodge the question. I'm fascinated by the replies so far in this thread, and I'm going to spend the next couple of hours at work doing a great productivity simulation for my co-workers while tweaking the dagger spreadsheet from Pf. <3's to everyone.
keep in mind as well a focused guild can step inside MC ~4 weeks after server is brought up and be at rag down within 3 more weeks. There are servers that have downed nef 8-10 weeks after server is brought up, just requires raiding a lot and extremely good people. You have to clear aq20/zg every window, possibly do some guild trades for Ony cloaks (although you can throne it as well) and have very, very good raid leaders and players.
with regard to classes, I've played both healing and DPS to 8/8 T2 and found its really a personal choice. I loved healing for a long time, but eventually when instances are on farm its much more boring than DPS. You stop caring about gear upgrades, its not that important since most of the time your just spamming heal2/gheal2/renew and gear won't change it that much once you reach certain +heal/mp5 stats. Whereas with DPS you are always fighting for position on the damage meters, you always are seeing bigger crits, and even small upgrades have visible effects on DPS and soloing.
Basically I found when learning new bosses healing was much more exciting and dynamic and visibly see the choices you make ("who do I heal and with what spell?"), but once a boss was on farm DPS classes became more interesting to play.
Some folks even feel the spreadsheets are becoming as silly as the AEP lists once were, since very few raid encounters are traditional “tank and spank" scenarios where you truly get to a sustained dps cycle.
I've heard the assertion, but I don't really feel it's true. Even fights which aren't tank and spank often allow for optimal cycles (Maexxna, for example, suits a 5 SnD cycle just fine, and Heigan only requires you to do it while moving). There are a few fights which don't (Chrom, Gluth), but for the most part, you're going to be doing some form of sustained DPS cycle.
But even the spreadsheet has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Absolutely. Understanding how to trade gear around to optimize for a specific fight (a little less +hit, a little more agi/crit/AP for in-out fights, for example) makes a perfect adjunct to the spreadsheet.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
And other than the spreadsheet, are there any other non-gear-focused resources that might help me in putting in that extra effort to push top DPS in MC and BWL as we progress through? I've noticed the same thing that was mentioned earlier, i.e. somewhat undergeared players using class knowledge and pure effort to beat out better geared and possibly lazier players.
Other than simply optimizing my cycles and avoiding wasted energy while keeping SnD up for the maximum number of ticks possible per fight, is there anything else that rogues tend to miss when learning the min-max game in the instances?
09/21/06, 3:04 PM
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