Do dagger rogues really get so little from windfury? Figured they'd outdamage frost mages at least. Ours is:
Fire Mage(singular most the time since they're the one that got the ignites) -> DW Warriors -> Fire mages -> SS Rogue(Rochan)/Dagger rogues -> Frost Mages -> Hunters -> Warlocks in terms of damage.
We always put the buff on the mages first, then a group with 3 warriors, a hunter(TSA), and a rogue, then we spread out the other warriors in the next couple groups for battle shout on the rogues. There's always a hunter in each warrior/rogue group for TSA as well.
I'm not sure what windfury has to do with it. I assume he is placing dagger rogues lower because we already have a very high crit rate, so we gain less overall from an increased crit rate. My backstab crits about 65% of the time unbuffed already. 35% normal crit unbuffed, plus dodge, miss, glancing, there isn't much room left for a huge crit increase to benefit a dagger rogue.
Third, a though a hunter may personally gain more from the buff, raid DPS would decrease overall by denying the warrior the buff till the end.
Eh?
BEcause of aggro? I'm missing something here.
DW fury warriors with that buff up will have flurry up almost indefinitely. You basically want it on them asap.
Isn't the reasoning behind Rogues not being good targets for the Loatheb buff that they're already crit-limited by Glancing Blows (or very close)? Why doesn't the same apply to Warriors?
Also, is it worth it to try to make sure healers have it when their rotation comes up?
Second, as a fury warrior, with that sort of buff, which provides insane rage generation through even just your offhand, I am HSing on around 3/4 of my swings. HS is not subject to glancing blows.
You can already HS a decent amount on a normal fight, but with 0 agro and 50% extra crit you can HS nearly every swing.
DW fury warriors with that buff up will have flurry up almost indefinitely. You basically want it on them asap.
Isn't the reasoning behind Rogues not being good targets for the Loatheb buff that they're already crit-limited by Glancing Blows (or very close)? Why doesn't the same apply to Warriors?
Also, is it worth it to try to make sure healers have it when their rotation comes up?
Do dagger rogues really get so little from windfury? Figured they'd outdamage frost mages at least. Ours is:
Fire Mage(singular most the time since they're the one that got the ignites) -> DW Warriors -> Fire mages -> SS Rogue(Rochan)/Dagger rogues -> Frost Mages -> Hunters -> Warlocks in terms of damage.
We always put the buff on the mages first, then a group with 3 warriors, a hunter(TSA), and a rogue, then we spread out the other warriors in the next couple groups for battle shout on the rogues. There's always a hunter in each warrior/rogue group for TSA as well.
I'm not sure what windfury has to do with it. I assume he is placing dagger rogues lower because we already have a very high crit rate, so we gain less overall from an increased crit rate. My backstab crits about 65% of the time unbuffed already. 35% normal crit unbuffed, plus dodge, miss, glancing, there isn't much room left for a huge crit increase to benefit a dagger rogue.
Well, I could have misunderstood his post, but I thought he was listing the typical order of damage on Loatheb for them, not who gets the buff first. If it's the order in which people get the buff, then yes dagger rogues need it less than other classes/sword rogues because of the backstab talent(though even then, white damage is a hefty chunk of the damage on Loatheb for a combat daggers rogue).
@firemages - well there are addons (at least a guy wrote one for us, but i bet theres some out there) that count the ignite dmg and measure how much dmg you do without ignites. and then you can proably just split up the ignite dmg between the fire mages. we don't have any frost mages left, so i wouldn't know how much the difference is. but our mages win the dps meter, even with split up ignites.
our warlocks suck, although those 3 are not the ones that do the best dmg usually. none of them has DS, but they use a different potion/bandage/pot rotation from everyone else, so they can lifetap and don't have to downgrade bolts or something. we also have 2 lightwells up usually. we got 3 warlcoks for coe cos cor, but i guess 2 and no cos would do fine. generally hunters + locks haven't really performed for us on that fight (and on many other NN dps races). we just got our first hunter with 6 t3, so that might help as mana issues are their biggest problem there afaik. i am still wondering what the 2 rogues on the bottom did there. they don't have perfect gear, but the top rogue is still using perd blade (combat dagger, full dd at least, which not all have). all four warriors on top are fury, grumf 2h, the rest DW. the one MS warrior with very sucky dps is using nightfall. although a MS dude with deoi did not nearly as much dmg as fury warriors with worse gear.
we buff (fire) mages > fury warriors > combat rogues > dagger rogues > warlocks > hunters > ms warriors (those are generally using nightfall so whatever).
to me it seems that the top dps in NN is always rogues, mages and fury awrriors. the other dps classes have a really hard time to keep up with those. for loatheb i'd prolly bring 1 tank, 7 shamans, 5 priests, 1 druid, 1 warlock, 25 dw warriors, if i could. :)
@shadowpriests: a friend was just quitting wow and did the usual thing priests do - spec shadow for 1-2 weeks and see if thats more fun. i grabbed his priest and put him in MT group along with some locks, to see if that helps. the problem is, VE triggers corrupted healing. then loatheb cleans curses every 30s, so you get maybe 28s of VE every minute if you time it well. unfortunately my pal does not have much spellhit gear, so i got resists here and there, which blows really bad. plus theres the common shadow priest problem - you run oom after 3 min of just mind flaying and mind blasting. my dmg wasn't very good either, compared to other classes which actually gain a much bigger benefit from +crit. after 2-3 hours of trying that, i gave it up and just specced lightwell along with another priest, which helps the locks (and low hp casters with unlucky potions) as well.
does anyone else find it funny that a mage named "FROSTbringer" is clearly the one getting the credit for all the ignites in this damage chart?
Yeah, I was listing buff priority, and sword/mace > dagger for exactly that reason -- our dagger rogues do very well on Loatheb, but the sword rogues see a larger % improvement from the buff. Let me see if I can find an old Loatheb DM...
DW Fury, Fire, Fire, Fire, DW Fury, DW Fury, DW Fury, Dagger, Sword, Nightfall bitch, Dagger, Dagger, Hunter -- kill time for that one was 4:50. The Rend buff was involved, which certainly helps the melee quite a bit.
The thing with Loatheb and bringing lots of Mages is that after about 5~ Fire Mages you actually want Frost Mages because of diminishing returns on Ignite, plus a Frost Mage's crit scales better than a Fire Mage's (especially with lots of Fire Mages sharing ignite). Everytime I went to Loatheb as Arcane/Frost I would be top 3~5 in damage, unless I did something stupid (hi mana gem) and died.
Then again in those cases I did have 95+% crit sooo...
@firemages - well there are addons (at least a guy wrote one for us, but i bet theres some out there) that count the ignite dmg and measure how much dmg you do without ignites. and then you can proably just split up the ignite dmg between the fire mages. we don't have any frost mages left, so i wouldn't know how much the difference is. but our mages win the dps meter, even with split up ignites.
our warlocks suck, although those 3 are not the ones that do the best dmg usually. none of them has DS, but they use a different potion/bandage/pot rotation from everyone else, so they can lifetap and don't have to downgrade bolts or something. we also have 2 lightwells up usually. we got 3 warlcoks for coe cos cor, but i guess 2 and no cos would do fine. generally hunters + locks haven't really performed for us on that fight (and on many other NN dps races). we just got our first hunter with 6 t3, so that might help as mana issues are their biggest problem there afaik. i am still wondering what the 2 rogues on the bottom did there. they don't have perfect gear, but the top rogue is still using perd blade (combat dagger, full dd at least, which not all have). all four warriors on top are fury, grumf 2h, the rest DW. the one MS warrior with very sucky dps is using nightfall. although a MS dude with deoi did not nearly as much dmg as fury warriors with worse gear.
we buff (fire) mages > fury warriors > combat rogues > dagger rogues > warlocks > hunters > ms warriors (those are generally using nightfall so whatever).
to me it seems that the top dps in NN is always rogues, mages and fury awrriors. the other dps classes have a really hard time to keep up with those. for loatheb i'd prolly bring 1 tank, 7 shamans, 5 priests, 1 druid, 1 warlock, 25 dw warriors, if i could. :)
@shadowpriests: a friend was just quitting wow and did the usual thing priests do - spec shadow for 1-2 weeks and see if thats more fun. i grabbed his priest and put him in MT group along with some locks, to see if that helps. the problem is, VE triggers corrupted healing. then loatheb cleans curses every 30s, so you get maybe 28s of VE every minute if you time it well. unfortunately my pal does not have much spellhit gear, so i got resists here and there, which blows really bad. plus theres the common shadow priest problem - you run oom after 3 min of just mind flaying and mind blasting. my dmg wasn't very good either, compared to other classes which actually gain a much bigger benefit from +crit. after 2-3 hours of trying that, i gave it up and just specced lightwell along with another priest, which helps the locks (and low hp casters with unlucky potions) as well.
does anyone else find it funny that a mage named "FROSTbringer" is clearly the one getting the credit for all the ignites in this damage chart?
my charname is clearly to confuse others intentionally ... like u really dont wanna know how many paladins switch to their frost resistance aura when they spot me in BGs ;)
From tonight's clean Loatheb kill, no world buffs used:
#1: Orc fury warrior (Hatchet/EoC).
#2: The prime ignite stealing suspect.
#3: And the second of such.
#4: Tauren fury warrior (EoC/HoD).
#5: Orc fury warrior (Hatchet/TF).
#6: Orc fury warrior (TF/BB).
#7: Undead combat dagger rogue (Pugio/CHT).
#8: Undead combat sword rogue (AQR/TF).
#9: Yet another ignite stealer, with lesser luck than the first two.
#10: Orc fury warrior (CotBD/SoUS).
We use a grouping in which four fire mages and a shaman get the spore debuff first. After that was the group containing myself, Samatra, Exbo and Panos. Groups three and four contained the rest of the melee dps classes, including one lucky hunter (they are usually in group 8) giving TSA aura for the fourth group.
It would be highly interesting to see how much damage could be pulled off with world buffs. Maybe I'll have to try that one day. Having recklesness available might've helped a bit also.
Also are you only 2 locks in raid and are doing this without CoS or 2 locks and using CoS / CoE or is there another lock giving that and using imp?
In that screenshot (post #11) i was not doing any curse. On todays kill our CoS lock wasnt here so I took over the duty and did 200k. So that seems consistent with the 30-40k drop in damage estimated for locks doing curses
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/uploaded/loathebdm.jpg
DW Fury, Fire, Fire, Fire, DW Fury, DW Fury, DW Fury, Dagger, Sword, Nightfall bitch, Dagger, Dagger, Hunter -- kill time for that one was 4:50. The Rend buff was involved, which certainly helps the melee quite a bit.
How comes all mages are so close ? It that an accident, or consistency in your kills ?
Originally Posted by zeidrich
Women's breasts can be modeled as a cone and measured as V = (Db^2*h*.785)/3 and since breasts can be thought of as an amorphous fluid, you just have to worry about containing the volume of the breast.
I really think that screenie is a joke (ie they probably stacked the raid pretty hard and decided to stack it a bit harder for the screen shot). You can't do 5mil damage in anywhere near 30 seconds, especially when ignites cap at 5 and mages should be hitting around 80% crit with the buff.
Well, you'd be surprised just how many people actually though it was real :S. Had some people in our guild (admittedly not the quickest of cats) beleive it as well.
What if you'd give the fungal bloom early on in the fight for DS/Ruin and SM/Ruin warlocks with Imp SBolt? Let them nuke all their mana with 5/5 Shadow Weaving stacked on Loatheb. That's constant +75%'ish damage (CoS+SW+DS+Imp SB) with +100% crit from Ruin.
I'm not completely familiar with the encounter. This is just a thought. Sry
Please read the forum guidelines before posting - whilst theorycraft is the bread and butter of this board, it has to be theorycraft with some actual theory behind it, not just random speculations. R&D forums over at the official forums are the place for throwing out random thoughts.
Please read the forum guidelines before posting - whilst theorycraft is the bread and butter of this board, it has to be theorycraft with some actual theory behind it, not just random speculations. R&D forums over at the official forums are the place for throwing out random thoughts.
There, I edited it into a question. Should make you feel a bit better. You separate ideas from real contribution in a speculative thread?
09/23/06, 3:29 AM
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