Sebila

I act as MT and I always bring consumable, about 20g worth per BWL run (used to bring flasks too), but I've started to have second thoughts...

As two examples:

Should I use 4-5 stoneshield potions (plus the 2000 AC trinket) for corrosive acid breaths on Chromaggus or should I start trusting that the large number of healers would be enough? (I also use shield block just before each breath, when the cast bars says 1 second or so). All bosses stay glued to me, I have no problems holding aggro (i.e. at Chrom I always have a couple of times more threat on KTM then the DPS guys, yesterday a warrior with Rag's hand)

Should I ask our healers if they ever bring mana pots, b/c for example at the last priest call at Nef, the heals were very weak (weaker then on previous priests calls on the same attempt) and I had to use last stand? Then a few seconds later, while still recovering, I got feared ( a priest said he did fw me, but could it have failed? Were I to see it, I could have broken fear, takes less then 2 seconds), and Nef shadow flamed the raid.

Then rather then stay for more attempts, people were bailing out (it was a bit past 9:30 server time, our official end time for the raid) b/c they had school next day etc
The lock that bailed out first, never made it on any dps charts...

On the same run I used Zanza potions (10g for bijou/token) for +50 STA, other +25 STA food Chimaerok Chops
(1g each), Blasted Lands cocktail, arthax potions, mongoose(2g each), dense sharpening stones (or elemental), 3 FAP (2g each) -so that we don't wipe at trash mobs anymore, one FR (2g), etc. The thing is I can afford it, but I'd still like to hear your advise, 'cause I am in a bit of a pinch, or at least puzzled.. I think the guys started to take things for granted (i.e. each boss in BWL is one pull), but when things go S, they don't seem to hang around and finish the job.

 

Julep

Not sure what your healing looks like, but Imo, Druids + Priests should equal at least 10.

We were banging our heads against the wall in BWL, grinding out each boss with 4-5 priests and 3-4 druids, because frankly, that's all we had. This makes the acid breath, particularly, very difficult. As soon as we picked up a couple more priests (blue gear) with 4 druids, we cleared up to Nef in one night, beating him on our second night of attempts. It was like BWL suddenly went to EZmode.

 

Tel

Hang on a minute...

Your guild dont supply you with those consumables? And just expect that you turn up with them each time while they sit around then leave early?

Sounds to me like you need to sit down and have a talk with you officers/guild leader mate. The guild should really be supplying you with potions and the like for tanking, unless of course you dont have a gbank, in which case you should be asking what happens to the greens/blues etc that drop during your bwl runs.

Personally I think you're getting a rough deal here, you're putting in loads of effort, they're just sitting around picking up loot.

Re the priest call, bare in mind that if you have a priest heavy raid then healing will drop off at that period, not alot you can do about it other than shout at druids and pallys to step it up.

 

Bubba

It sounds like you're burning the equivalent of what most people use in Naxx, but in BWL. If your healers aren't even bringing mana pots, something is severely wrong there. I would consider mana pots an absolutely standard requirement for raiding, same goes for healing pots and melee.

I definitely don't think you need Stoneshields for Chrommaggus, unless your gear is well below par. We didn't start using stoneshields until Patchwerk - if your healers are on the ball, Acid should not be a concern, even if coupled with Ignite Flesh.

BWL is basically your introduction consumable use as a raid. I know through the course of MC the only consumables I ever used were GFPP & Mongoose at Rag. In BWL, Titans on your tanks when you're learning Broodlord, Firemaw, Chromaggus and Nef all smooth the learning curve. The same thing goes for the rest of the raid though, the burden doesn't just fall solely on the tanks' shoulders. Magebloods on your healers and Mongoose/Firewater on your melee at both Chrom/Nef will have a significant impact on your dmg/healing for the duration of the fight - simply having the MT buff to the gills will not always cut it.

 

Sebila

At times we may be a lil short on druids (recruiting now) but we usually get 5/5/5 or 6/4/5 priests/druids/paladins...

Presuming that we have the numbers, I still have two questions in my mind:

a) Should I trust them and stop using consumables like stoneshield potion (but still use Zanza, Chimaerok Chops, FAP, etc)?

b) Should I (or enroll the gl) start asking them if they bring mana pots and mayb even start parsing combat logs?
Basically should I open my mouth and say anything about what I percieve to be a too casual attitude?

 

subscience

Once you get comfortable with the fights, you can really trim down on consumables. Like, you can save the Stoneshield Potions for the enrage portion only.

Also, assuming you're the MT, all you really need for Nefarian is a Flask of the Titans and a few Greater Shadow Protection Potions for Warrior calls. Once you can reliably transition to phase 2, you can use the Flask as early as Chrommagus as well.

Our healers bring Major Mana Potions, Brilliant Wizard Oils, and a few Demonic Runes they may run across. I bring Free Action Potions, Stoneshield Potions, one Flask, a few Major Healing Potions, and a stack of Greater Shadow Protection Potions.

Try to have your guild fund the Flasks since you'll want one for Nefarian every week.

Edit- Whoops, I mean Brilliant Mana Oil. "Someone lube up my staff!"

 

Sebila

Bubba, thans and I think that my gear is decent got 7/8 wrath (missing BP and also a better shield then my driboller) + Thunderfury. I also defend quickly enough (like less then a second in emergencies with 2Xhealth stones, last stand, shield wall, pots and my shield block is allways on when up. I mean I resorted to lazy tanking one key mashing most of the times, especially to be able to defend, since we lost our best healers after a minor guild split).

What you said about the level of consumables I'm using in BWL being on a par to Naax usage was what I suspected :(

Still not sure if I should open my mouth or not.

 

Julep

wtf is a palidin?

But seriously, you shouldn't be burning that many consumables. BWL just requires all 40 people to know their job and execute when you are mostly MC geared.

We use the guild bank to give repair money and healing pots to tanks, but that's about it. Every caster is responsible for their own mana pots and I think 20 or 30 is recommended, depending on the night. We only use flask of Titans for guild firsts, Broodlord, and Nef. Maybe if it's a big guild first and we have the whole night will we bust out some Flask of Distilled Wisdom and Supreme Power.

 

Sebila

I am MT, gave up on flasks (especially since we have a "new" bank and I don't feel like paying for it anymore; the bank only has like 3 and we decided to maybe keep them for new bosses in AQ); thanks for the Greater shadow preotection potions though :)

We do kill Nef every week (it takes 2 days, this week it will be 3 :(); still working to do it one day (moving a bit faster at trash mobs now) ; each boss (with the exception of Vael and Nef, which is a surprise) was one pull this week; obviously the only unexpected death for me was at Nef. The guild is a tad too casual (after the gl left, best druid with his gf, best priest) the new leadership switched from 4 days of raiding to 3 days only and if people leave immediatelly after the "official" end time, the gl says it's ok and he is second to leave...The main problem I got with that is that Sat we now have to stop to kill Nef first, before going to AQ40 and I doubt that we'll go past the prophet there :(

 

Zarianis

I hope you meant your healers bring Brilliant Mana Oils, the Wizard ones are for dps.

 

Bubba

As Tel mentioned, if you're having to farm this stuff yourself and you're the MT, you are seriously getting a bum deal. The guild should be funding the tanking consumables you use, no question.

TBH, it sounds like you are putting in a ton of work, without seeing similar effort being put in by the rest of the raid. If that is truly the case, then you have to bring it up immediately with your guild's leadership.

 

◊ blindworld

I'd talk to your healers first. Show them how many consumables you go through on a typical run, and the materials required to make all of them. Since you feel strong enough about it to post here, you're obviously not happy with the way things currently are. Ask them if they think they can pick up the slack from the lack of consumables, and if they say yes, then trust them for the decision, at least initially. If they don't think they're capable of it, or they show that they're not capable of it when you go without, talk to the guild leader about having the guild front the cost on some of them. If the guild knows the choice is either farm a bit collectively, or fail to clear the instance, the answer should be clear.

As far as consumables for healers, I would usually bring about 10 major mana pots, and 5 combat pots a BWL clear. I'd never go through them all, but I'd have them if I needed them, or if others ran out. For Nef, I always had some kind of food buff on me, 12 stam/spirit, 8 mp5 or 10 int, depending on the food I had at the time, and an extra 10 stam/25 spirit -5 int from dire maul alcoholic beverages. On top of that, most of us would also have brilliant mana oil on. After we killed him a few times, these were no longer needed, but they definately helped during the learning phase.

It seems you're fronting the cost of their lack of consumables with extra consumables for yourself, and that's not really fair to you.

 

Tharos

You should speak up a bit. If the rest is not bringing consumables and you have to overdo it to compensate for that. Basicly talk to the officers about the situation. If you sell all the blues and greens you collect every week the guildbank should be able to supply you with a flask for nef and a few greater stoneshield pots every week. If you feel there is a problem then very probably there is a problem, talk about it in guild. you dont want to go into AQ and later Naxx with a situation like this.

Tharos | There are no stupid questions, just stupid people

 

Frear

Um more like everyone should be bringing consumables. I mean everyone ...

 

Tel

Sounds to me like you're looking for a progression guild and at the moment you're stuck in a 'casual raid guild'. I'd talk to your officers and carefully explain that you are unhappy with the situation and that they need to sort it out as you feel that other guilds would be treating you alot better. Dont threaten them with leaving, just let them know that you have realised you're getting the short end of the stick here and that you are considering your options. Maybe that will give them the kick up the arse they need to sort out what sounds like a serious case of laziness from your raiders.

If nothing happens/they arent prepared to listen, then i suggest a new guild, one that will put in the same level of commitment as you :)

 

Zarianis

This man speaks the truth, our guild funds both the MT and OT consumables for Nax, they also bring their own stuff. As a healer I also in the course of farming herbs for my own pots pick enough to make 3 stacks of major healing pots that I pass out to the tanks, and if I get a chance I will fish up some stonescales and send some ore over from my miner and make a couple stacks of either stoneshields or the 450 armor potions and give them to the tanks. It makes my job a little easier and keeps thier repair costs down, also they will help me farm CC rep because of it so it all works out.

 

subscience

Whoops; post edited.

I use a Flask on every Nefarian kill even now when we can kill him with ease. A Flask isn't very expensive to make if the cost is spread out and one a week will save you some headaches from the MT dying and having to sit around for 15 minutes and wait for everyone to not be AFK. Try to push guild-funded Flasks of the Titans if possible; you're going to need one for each Warrior tank on Twin Emperors every week as well, so your guild should get used to the idea of using a Flask or three every week.

 

Bubba

Also, to put it into perspective:

At Patchwerk you can expect to blow four Titans on a night of work, and around 12 Greater Stoneshield pots per attempt.

If our tanks had to farm that stuff by themselves on top of all the other stuff they gather, they'd probably quit.

 

Gyshall

Once you're past Huhuran in AQ, you're probably geared enough where consumables aren't an extreme issue for BWL. The only fight I would think about Flasking on is Nef, and even then I don't any more.

 

Sebila

Thank you for all your input, honestly, I would not quit b/c:

1. I am MT and that's most fun in the game; I take pride in what I do and like to improve my play and learn new encounters.
I probably won't be able to find an MT position in a better guild on my server and anyhow, how does one go about it? Heck I even heard from our third ranked guild (that wanted me, like the second does as well) to not even mention to their other recruiting officer (who happened to me MT) that I have Thunderfury...

2. I am a team player; I owe it to the guild after getting TF (well with my mats mostly) and I also understand that we lost about 8 raiders (including the gl and his gf, top priest) and that the bank is new and kinda broke (haven't run much MC since then).

3. I don't mind the cost per say so much (in the past I used to even pay repair bills for everyone a few times in BWL or help people in need with 100g); got lucky as a blacksmith. What I do mind, thoigh, is lack of focus/dedication and progression. Even this cutting down the raiding days from 4 to 3 doesn't bode well with me, unless we do BWL in one sitting.

 

• Daboran

You need a serious word with your raid tbh.

When learning bosses or clearing instances you are relatively new to EVERYONE should have buffs/pots available and use them on boss attempts.

Even something simple like Gordok Grog/Kreegs/Monster Omelette - they don't seem much but over 40 people give the raid a not-insignificant edge. Healers should bring mana oil/mageblood/mana pots etc, dps being their equivalent and so on.

As already said - in AQ40/Naxx if your raid doesnt bring pots then you are looking at a looooooog learning curve. Get them used to it now and there will be a lot less QQ later, and yes... it shows committment and respect for the raid.

 

probiscus

When I was an undergeared rogue in my BWL days I'd bring juju + str + mongoose and keep them up for an entire BWL clear. I'd also have anywhere between 60-100 tubers on me at any given time.

That's pretty lame if, as MT, your guild isn't paying for your consumables, repair bills and whatever else. Especially if you're spec'd prot. When I'd be out farming for all those herbs and such I always made a point to go out of my way to get all the ice cap, arthas tears, etc for the mana and GoA pots for tanks and healers. IMO a solid raid group should probably have 10+ herbalists like that.

 

• Tibor

You need to have a word with your raid's officers. It sounds like they take you deeply for granted, and while you sound like an amazing person and player -- generous, able, hard-working and loyal -- there's only so long you can carry them on your broad shoulders, both logistically and emotionally. As many have said, there is a point where one raider's high level of preparation cannot compensate for a lack of the same in the rest of the raid. Moreover, there will likely come a time when you become bitter and resenful of the fact that you do the heavy lifting and most of the rest are hangers-on, and it takes away from your enjoyment of the game.

Better to clear the air, and soon, than to rob yourself of what makes this game fun.

 

Paradis

6 right bindings, poor SE :(

Your healers should be bringing consumables, no question. Even the superior mana pots (super cheap on IC) coupled with AD spirit water will help if funding potion cost is an issue for some people.

 

Bubba

Well, I wasn't inferring that you should quit. But it sounds fairly clear that you're shouldering a lot more of the burden than you should have to - paying repair costs for the guys that don't even bring consumables sounds like you're carrying the weight of casual freeloaders as well.

Quite simply, as the MT you are the focal point of the guild's success in raiding. As such, the guild should be responsible for making sure you have the edge you need, not you.