Keep in mind, using a few potions will be cheaper then paying repair bills, especially if you include the time wasted.

Time = Money friend!

People lazy with consumables annoy me. On any serious learning attempts on a boss like Loatheb, Patchwerk, Thaddius, etc I've always had a Flask of Supreme power and piles of Arcane Elixirs. It just makes the most sense to me to contribute as much. I also burn through several stacks of Superior Mana Potions just to make sure I have mana, even if I don't necessarily need it. Hearing about guilds with people who won't even us basic consumables is painful.

That's so true and that's one of the main reasons I keep doing it (especially since we only raid 3 days now, and last week it was 2, cause the AQ40 was cancelled :()

Besides saving time, we also try to keep the guild together (i.e. have as few as possible gquits and recruiting lacking classes etc). It's a fine ballance, some people want progress, some are casual...

And ty Bogart, but not really lol While team playing comes from many years of sports and even on line games such as this one, I am also selfish: I trurly think that being MT is the most fun way of playing this game :) Also enjoying a guild's natural progression, rather then jumping on the bandwagon on some power guild that has most instances on farm status, makes your money worth (after all, who would like to fast forward a good movie eh? I just read a similar topic here about how many people would take their time to level to 70 and enjoy the new content...).

It's not necessarily about progression, but about playing with those that appreciate and share your playstyle and enthusiasm for raiding.

Exactly and lol the world is small. Thanks also for the hint about pots!

Thunderfury, the stupidest quest in warcraft. Cairdeas, 1 year MC, 3 left bindings, 0 right.

Regarding consumables, create packing lists for minimum expected stuff that everybody should bring to every raid. For larger stuff, usually the flasks/stoneshields and the like, have people send material to the guild bank. Pick some officer to be in charge of the 'Consumables Needs' list.

Make public posts about who were the top five contributors and the like. Big expensive consumables for the MT are a guild effort, becuase they are for guild benefit.

Take the following with a grain or a shaker of salt, but I know what consumables we use, have used, ect. I'm horde, so my experince is limited.

I think stoneshield is really a lot more money than you should be burning. Those are easily...hell, I don't even know, 2g/each on my server?. I'd strongly recommend a priest with Inspiration spamming low rank heals right before the breaths. Whiel people get used to really stepping up the healing you -may- die, so have an offtank there, and have someone (not you) announce to the healers what's happening. If you're oneshotting everything that's just an expense you don't need.

Chimerok chops (imo) tend to cancel out a flask on anything but Nef, and since it sounds like you're at the oneshotting everything stage, that's 1 piece of meat for each clear (brood, firemaw, chromag, 2 spares). I don't think you're geared enough to drop flask on Nef yet.

Honestly, TF produces a ridiculous amount of aggro, and if you can clear the wingbuffeters already those mats probably don't help. So you can drop sharpening stone, mongoose- not sure what Arthax is? If that's gift of arthas you should keep that one up, but it's really trivial for any herbalist to farm (20 minutes is ~10 pots) and helps a bunch. Of course, you can phase that out as your dps gets higher, or if getting the mats is anything other than something that happens on the way for a RO run.

Blasted lands..bleah. Keep Bijou buffs on you (in your inventory, I mean), those are pretty easy to get ahold of. Have you considered using those as clutch heals? If my memory serves they are going to pop your HP up -and- heal you.

This is a really wierd question, but do you -have- an offtank? For Nef at least, all my alliance friends insist you are going to make your life easier if you don't always rely on Fear Ward to juggle out, jsut cancel the zerker if you have a ward up (isn't this macroable?). I'm not trying to criticize, but even with the best intentions people lag/space out/go oom/screw up, and that that leads directly to a wipe that you personally could have prevented is something you need to step up to, imo.

As for talking with the healers....it sounds like your guild leader specificly is fairly casual, do you have a healing officer you can talk to? Magebloods in particular are really nice for learning, combat mana pots are simply sexy, and none of it is all that much trouble. The problem is, when a 'tank' goes and talks to the 'healers' I've seen a lot of unpleasant stuff happen, from ruffled feathers to gquits, so I'd strongly recommend some intermediary. Having someone hand out healer consumables (Mageblood, maybe a brillant mana oil, some major mana pots) for a few runs then audibly encourage it might help.

On a final note, I'm afraid I have to agree with some of the above posters. At least from what it sounds like, your dissastisfaction stems more from wanting to be a bit of a hardcore raider in a guild run by and populated by at least a number of casuals. This doesn't mean you should try to quit your guild, or anything, but it does mean maybe you should look into running offnight MC...which can turn into offnight Naxx (instructor really doesn't take much beyond your gear point, nor does anub). Sounds like your guild bank needs the padding atm. Figure out why the GL only wants to run 3 nights, see if it can be worked around.

Just my take on it all.

I agree, and you can get your point across without talking to anyone if you want to. Do a BWL without using any of the pots/buffs you mentioned you normally get, except the protection pots. If they ask you why you didnt use your Juju or chimearok chops etc. just say why should you spend so much on consumables when no else brings even the basics to increase their DPS/healing.

Healers should have pots and food, no question. Anyone that doesn't is slacking. Sagefish Delight is cheap and easy and even a stack of Greater Mana Potions and Combat Mana Potions is enough to get by if you're killing the mobs normally. It wouldn't hurt to have a few Major Mana Pots, but I only ever use mine on Nef, but I'm a shaman so I'm oom after my call. They probably aren't necessary for druids, priests or paladins.

With the (absolutey bugnuts insane) prices on GSPP on loatheb-killing servers, do you guys actually think that that is worth it? In my experince it's not Shadowflame that kills a tank, it's lack of decursing/mage polly/bad class calls.

Seems like major health and HS should be wroth it..and of all crazy things someone suggested Amp Magic (as it supposedly only adds the damage on top of it to shadowflame, and nothing else, while magnifiying heals so heavily). Just do not put CoR on nef. *cry*

Sorry, I keep derailing threads..

I feel quite embarrassed; can't type forever about "me", "me" etc, but I'll try to answer this one, because the original poster went in so much detail:

Great thanks (and yes it's 2g each), that's what I was thinking. I will keep in mind the hint about inspiration. There is a very capable off tank (actually more advanced then me instance wise), even if somehow I feel that the raid is better of if the MT doesn't die.

All right, I'll think about the flask even if I only used one once, on my first Nef kill, I think that Chimerok chops+ zanza, being +75 STA unbuffed might be enough (even the OT tanked Nef once, when I was away, probably with no flask)

Ooops, yeah gift or arthas (Sorry English is not my mother tongue, I was born in a Latin country in Europe). What is a RO run?
And yes we can clear the wingbuffeters, usually one shot (even if Firemaw is still tough, heal wise- I have to check if those guys really shield properly before shadow flame- combat log maybe? I eat wing buffets, even if the OT is trying to do a good job- so once in a while I pop a FR pot per raid); So far you've confirmed many of my guesses: drop stoneshield, mongoose, sharpening stones.

Blasted Lands cocktail is free, even if it takes some time to get it, if respawns are slow. No I haven't used the zanza/bijou as a clutch, I figured that if I drink it before the Nef fight starts, the healers keep me topped :) For clutches I have the normal tanking abilities (last stand, improved shield wall, etc) and at least 2 health stones (sometimes I ask for more mid-fight) of different sizes + other pots such as major healing. I hope to get a lifegem soon, cause the ZG/Hakaar trinket that gives 2000AC and defense is not too helpful in BWL and further.

Yeah, there is a good OT and 2 more DPS warriors that can tank (hell one even got the Elementium Reinforced Bulwark ahead of me, when he though the guild is going down hill; he just apologized yesterday[ He has a things for shields though, he also got the Drillborer Disk ahead of me]. I did help both get their Hands of Ragnaros; so we are a pretty tight group; actually the one with the ERB I picked to be my co-class leader when I was an officer myself and the other one I recruited). I do have a macro to break fear, but now you got me thinking: so I should try to make a macro that would cancel the zerker if a fw is up? All right, I'll look into it (anyone knows how to check if fw is up?)

Most of the officers are casual now...And people want to avoid drama.
All right one of the priests class leaders and one of the paladins are my friends (as are many of their classes): I'll go talk to them; thanks for the hint, like other people have posted, I don't want to ruffle too many feathers....I may buy some major mana pots myself (hint, hint :))

Thanks, while the bank needs padding, not sure if we can get people even for a regular MC (in the off days) not to mention Naax; we are working on it though. And yes you (like other posters) are right on the money; I am a bit of a more hardcore raider, but on the other hand I am not ready to give up MTing just to be an OT.

Why the GL wants to run only 3 nights? It was just announced when he took over and I don't know if the majority of officers agree with that (they seemed to have been happy that someone took over); I know that some of the younger players/officers don't like it, want to be more hardcore raiders...The GL had his wife sick recently and that's most probably why he wants only 3 days, b/c he had asked for our opinion in the past (when he wasn't a GL) what 4th day to cut from raiding, Saturday or Sunday? Now you see, this is delicate; hard for me to approach him (b/c of the above situation) and also b/c I don't want him to feel threatened (been in the guild longer then him and most everyone else, was an officer when he approached me telling me that he wanted to be one, always been MT etc). Lol but enough of the "me" stuff; again many thanks for the thoughtful posts!

We have our guild bank sponsor consumables we feel are a "necessity". Back when we were learning Chromaggus we always seemed to be losing the MT in the 10%-20% range on him. Of course this was partly due to us running out of sands as the attempt counter rose, but still we found flasking the MT, and using Greater Stoneshield's a great asset with the correct (or rather, wrong) breath combination.

For attempts that are clearly "for the kill" we often have our guild bank sponsor about 1000g+ worth of consumables raidwise. On the other hand we very rarely sponsor repair costs, in fact this has happened only once, even for the best geared tanks whose costs can easily reach 30g total for a wipe night.

I would strongly suggest getting a guild economy up and running. Sell MC BoE epics, AQ20 books, there's always a ton of rare blue drops from Onyxia, Nefarian, as well as the ED Dragons. Disenchant green loot, and make your members eligible to request mats out of a vault for enchanting their gear. With over 1.5 years of raiding now and a guild bank that's existed since the guild forming on release day, we've got quite the impressive organization running.

I'm sure there's a thread on these forums somewhere detailing how guild vaults / banks are handled out there. It's very neat when you got one.

Thanks, there was one attempt done by another warrior to raid a fourth night, we'll try again (I intent to help plan it); maybe even use sign-up sheets or something. Last Friday I did run an AQ20, but it was almost like teeth pulling 'cause we only had 21 people on line and had to bring friends; but people liked the way the raid went, the easy rep, etc

While your commitment is admirable, I think you're probably looking at a lost cause with your present guild. Basically, you come across as having the mindset of a member in a 'top of server' guild. Your current guild sounds far more casual. You won't get what you're looking for out of them, as a group of people.

Just leave them and go elsewhere. Your main concern is the tanking thing? Well, believe me, most warriors given choice between dps and tanking choose dps. Warriors that want to/can tank/have the mindset for it are few and far between and very valuable. Most encounters past BWL are designed to utilize multiple tanks. So, even if you're not "the MT", you will still end up tanking.

As long as you can meet the raid schedule for it, you should look for a guild that's more serious about progression with a membership more attuned to your own goals. You won't be happy and you won't have fun otherwise. What do you pay $15 a month for? Your commitment to a bunch of people you never knew before you gave them your commitment?

This is a no brainer, definately better if you don't die. HOWEVER, imo it's more important for you to die and healers realize 'whoah, need to step it up' instead of you burning an inordinate amount of consumables. Frankly the cost for Stoneskin and similar > costs for a few mana posts for healers. Your healers will be pretty soon (if not already) able to take it without a whole lot of consumable usage, but having them rely on your consumable usage leads to them not being able to effectively assess the encounter. *shrug* I'd take the wipe and people learn, but I'm a jerk like that.

I admit, I misread, didn't realize you were doing it without a flask already. How much HP are we talking, with imp/chimerok/mark/kings/fort? You might be just fine anyway.

Yeah, esp with TF your aggro should be JUST fine. RO == Rightous Orbs, live strath, the arthas mats are so easy to get you can get enough for a month's worth just on the way through EPL, so no real reason not to have those (justr ask in /g one day, you'd be suprised).

As for shielding before shadowflame, it's much more important that you're fully topped off before one. There's a good thread some ways back specificly about firemaw, but the only relivant thing is that you can time 2.5 second heals to hit just after while some people burst up just before when you get that handy 3 second warning from CTRA.

Slight sidenote, not trying to criticize- what is yourbasis for saying they have mana issues on firemaw? My visual mana pool is often kind of low, though I don't consider myself 'in trouble' if I'm only 1.4k but with trinket/tide/pot/rune all off cooldown and I know I don't have to heal for a while, so it's hard for anyone not me to judge healing. You might actually not be seeing the consumable usage...though to be frank your issue is obviously a little more focused on hardcore/casual raiding then the specific subject of consumables (they're just a good metric).

If you're beating an encounter, scaling back consumables makes sense. Stoneskin can be countered by more healing, but if nef can breathe/thrash/crit for your entire HP you just simply need more- so in some sense healers will go potless while you keep using -some- mats, no reason you should farm them all solo though. This is not the situation now, your'e using inordinate consumables while they (apparently) aren't, and frankly I think you are probably geared to the point where you can drop off (almost) all of them.

Heh...defense not too useful. If you don't have 440.....but that's a whole nother thread. LGG is however worth going for.

While blasted lands may be 'free' it still takes time to farm, time you could farm for money for the 'not free' stuff. For 25 stam, that's a lot of time to spend. The Zanza's different because you should be running ZG anyway, so it's reallly -nil- extra time/money.

To go into specifics on Boar/Zanza, I -think- that they are unlinked from the pot timer, heal for the amount they increase your HP by. In other words, if you get in trouble and healer mana is low and a warrior call comes up, trip them both and you're suddenly up a nice 1k HP.

Lemme see if my silly self can work up a macro, though people here are doubtless better at it than I. What I meant by the OT, is there's really not a reason to have someone in mostly dps gear in case you miss the fear, the dwarf fails on fearward, ect, who can swap to a shield, hit zerker rage, swap to def stance and -hopefully- keep him pointed from the raid 'long enough'. Sure, good chance he'll die and nef'll turn, but that is an extra instant that the raid will be okay. Dont' really need a real offtank with FW, but no harm in having someone designated waiting for you to say 'oh FUCK'.

Good idea, but if you want to burn money specificly for this, Brilliant Mana Oil is your friend. It's about 6g for 5 charges that last a half hour each (though NOT on zones) and it's a MASSIVE increase to help. If you want to hand out pots, mageblood potions are cheaper and last an hour apiece (though not through death). Major mana pots are overrated, hand out one rank down. Overall, this is less money than you probably think, and it's amazing how addictive they get.

Well, as someone above said, 'just an OT' is a pretty vital role, and you'd be amazed at how easy it is to get in a guild when apply as an OT/MT iwth a TF. That's a step you don't come back from though, so be careful.

Well...if there's a reasonable group of wanting to be more hardcore people, is there an officer among them? I understand not wanting the GL to feel threatened....but frankly modeling a guild after one person's personal life can't be the only way to run it. Don't phrase it that way though. *grin*

Try approaching your friends in guild, discussing with them, they could know more than you think. They certainly know more than I do.

OK

I am 6350 HP unbuffed; buffed, over 8000, I'll check and report back, if you'd still be reading this.

All right, thanks again.

Cool I am telling our priests.

Oh I see what you mean....I didn't say mana issues, it seems more like healing issues; last time I almost died like 6 times (had to use not only last stand, shield wall, but 4 health stones, one major healing and one FR pot when I had like 16 buffets). During the fight I was also concerned for not letting the OT die, when my taunt got resisted etc. I only checked damage meter and it showed that 25% of the damage I took was shadow and about 62% was melee. My combat log was turned off by mistake (just the second time using it). Recap wasn't cleared/resetted (Again new tool for me) so that it included 20 men raid info I think. But your hint should help and I will do better post mortem analysis. Also new to NECB/La Vendetta etc. What I do know though is that with the previous healers I used to have in group one, it was much easier.(the previous gl and his gf; druid and priest, they left). Funny side note: damage meter showed me 2nd on DPS for that fight :) And yeah I am more worried about raiding more/ more hardcore.

Thanks will do something like that.

I only got 413; do you mean that if I can't get to 440, I should bother too much about defense? The only LGG that dropped for us, went to an OT who has since left (with his family and buddies when the previous gl left), but I will try to get one.

I don't farm much, I craft, being a major blacksmith/axesmith (See my cheesy posts about selling on credit with no interest); got money saved for repairs (even after helping friends, paying for Thunderfury or regular expenses such as these); something like 8000g. Well I work regularely and my gold tends to go up, even now (by another 200g lets say per week). I really don't plan to run ZG much anymore, got both enchants for my tier 2 (even paid for the last bit of exp to get exalted), kinda prefer AQ 'cause I need the Buru shield and probably exp. Or get my AD rep to exalted, for Naax patterns.

Tanks again, will do; not only it's nice tip about the timer, but wasn't even aware that they heal too..Only heard it in this topic!

Thanks! I also have a macro tied to my big "+" on the numeric pad (thumb usuage) that takes me into beserker, draws rage, then takes me back into defensive stance; all I got to do is press it 3 times in a row; I'll use it, if I can't figure out a way to check for fw first in a macro...Yeah there is a good OT and a couple of DPS warriors around, but last time it breathed too fast.

Brilliant mana oil seems to be 11g for 2 charges on our server :( Mageblood potions probably 7g for 5, same for medium mana pots or w/e they are called.

Thanks, if I decide to do that, I should probably do it no longer then 2-3 weeks from now; so that it's before the patch and as long as I have some offers/bridges from the power guilds (like second, third and fourth). Like you said, I'll think it over carefully.

Thanks again, good advise; will check what people want, starting with my friends.

Yes I know, except that the previous gl kinda run away with the bank and now we got a new one (and still need to run MC again; we do Ony, BWL some AQ, havent stepped back into Naax since), but thanks.

Thanks, will look into getting some greater mana pots.

Wow Dynewolf and Zarianis :) You guys really see everything? :) I will cut down on some consumables and observe things closely (maybe not open my mouth just yet, 'cause I never, ever do that lol Nor complain about healings)

sorry to hear that Cluey (not even a server transfer, if not a new guild?) and thanks for the warning! Really Bogart was too kind in his assesment.

We did that to get Rag (and even then I put about 400g off my own money per raid, the bank too, to an amount exceeding 1000g for the first kill); since then we had one major split, followed by a minor one (not too bad, by comparision with other guilds though); but not only I am not an officer anymore, now the word of the day is to keep things nice and smooth, "no drama" (especially since the previous gl was a bit of a jerk, but he left b/c the guild wan't focused/hardcore enough). It would be better if someone else has this innitiative (again), that you mentioned, not me, 'cause it would look like I am complaining. Truth be told I am happy to be MT and damned be the consumables, except that they may be an indicator that people are slacking off and we aren't making much progress.

Wise words, thanks!