The current plan is to reduce effectiveness of crowd control spells in Arena Combat. It’s not sure at the moment if this will also carry over to battlegrounds, but it is a possibility.
What we're looking into is having reduced duration of crowd control spells to prevent extended removal from combat. Outside of PvP areas such as arenas, spells will operate as normal, according to their tooltip. Inside a PvP area, a spell which may have had a 15 second duration will be reduced to a 10 or 5 second duration. The details of duration are not specific, we’re merely using these numbers to illustrate the point and intent.
So, while we don't plan on disabling CC in AC ASAP, we do intend to decrease its potential for extended incapacitation.
Beyond any possible design changes to crowd control duration, keep in mind that the damage to health ratios are planned to be much more extreme than they are currently. Players will have more health and armor than they do now, with less ability to take that armor and health down as quickly as is currently possible. The general curve of power versus damage mitigation is going to change, and with that things such as crowd control are not going to mean nearly as much in longer fights when diminishing returns really start to become a factor. Currently if you can keep someone out of a fight for a few seconds it can mean certain victory, but such quick paced battles are likely to become less and less prevalent moving into the expansion, and with it crowd control abilities are likely to become less impacting in a battle.
Originally Posted by Drysc
Any ability that can keep a player occupied or out of the fight can technically be considered a crowd control ability. It's become a pretty broad term for the majority of players.
Drysc goes on to say in response to a question of how CC changes will affect "glass-cannon" classes such as rogues/mages - his response was that while changes to CC are certainly incoming, that the overall big picture modifications being made to all classes from 60-70 will alter their view of these changes.
I'd say that judging off what they're saying that a lot of the concerns about CC classes in Arena PvP are going to be lessened - no 30 second fears, saps, to worry about. Strategies are definitely going to be changing due to this I think.
I wonder of course, where this will leave the rogues in utility, the so-called Crowd-Control class?
I suppose I should wait until I see how this actually works but passing judgement, but it's certainly amusing. The passive bonus on the priest arena set is "Increases the duration of your Psychic Scream by 1 second." If it's going to last 3 seconds instead of 9, that's very funny to me. I'd have to imagine that there is some sort of mechanics change that to accompany this. If poly's only going to last 5 seconds at a maximum, it'll likely be coded to last that full 5 seconds as long as there is no outside interference.
As a mage I completely welcome this change. I was getting sick of short duration CC that basically meant a certain death with no way to fight back. Anything that frees me from the fear/silence = death is welcome by me. One thing they dont mention is the impact the larger HP pools will have on DoT's. Hopefully this will lessen the impact of DoT's as well. Considering currently a single DoT from a priest can eat up close to 80% of my HP.
This feels like a ridiculous double whammy as a rogue. Unbuffed HP is already going to go way up, now "Any ability that can keep a player occupied or out of the fight can technically be considered a crowd control ability"? My saps don't last 10 secs 50% of the time as it is. What's next, 5 sec saps, half duration stuns?
I don't see this as needed at all in light of the player mitigation changes, and really fucks over burst classes(ie: Mage and Rogue)
They're already increasing the duration of fights via HP increases, so nerfing the last refuge of burst DPSers running out of steam, CC, is a double whammy that unless these new talents and spells are going to have huge repercussions, seems way too excessive.
I hate to be a chicken-little about it, but a rogue right now can barely get an equal geared class to 30% health with all of thier burst damage before they peter-out. You double everyone's health and reduce our cc (stuns) and we are in a world of hurt. Giving a rogue more health doesn't do much, we have to be close in to kill something, so casters have no trouble whitling us down to nothing after we're out of stealth and we have less armor than all of the caster classes vs melee... yeesh.
Not trying to be a whiner at all, just saying these things will need to be addressed and the talent previews sure don't inspire rogue confidence.
Well, I guess it's a good thing I have my warrior who I can gear up to be my arena main. Massive HP and AC pools, on-demand snares, distance closers, multi-target damage, AOE fear, fear immunity, massive burst damage, and the option to spec into a -50% healing debuff?
Oh, wait, I'm supposed to prefer lowered-duration control moves from a class that relies on now-obsoleted burst damage with comparatively low AC, comparatively low HP, a primary defense that precludes attacking and a secondary defense that doesn't work against ranged attacks, magic, attacks from behind, or attacks that occur when I'm stunned?
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Its hard enough right now, facing equally geared and organised opponents to kill anybody with healers present. About the only way to kill somebody in an organised group is to focus fire his ass down before anyone can react and save him. Now with lower damage capability, shorter CC etc. its even more of a kid's game.
At least in the arena.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
I hate to be a chicken-little about it, but a rogue right now can barely get an equal geared class to 30% health with all of thier burst damage before they peter-out. You double everyone's health and reduce our cc (stuns) and we are in a world of hurt. Giving a rogue more health doesn't do much, we have to be close in to kill something, so casters have no trouble whitling us down to nothing after we're out of stealth and we have less armor than all of the caster classes vs melee... yeesh.
Not trying to be a whiner at all, just saying these things will need to be addressed and the talent previews sure don't inspire rogue confidence.
Rogues are going to need a big overhaul or we will become useless at level 70 pvp. I dont think Blizzard really understands how higher HP totals are going to effect some classes though, or if they do understand they dont care in favor of making the game more fun for the classes who do benefit from higher HP totals.
My saps don't last 10 secs 50% of the time as it is. What's next, 5 sec saps, half duration stuns?
On the other hand I can't think of when I've been sapped and it lasted less than full duration. =(
When you're CCed and your healer's getting killed, every second -feels- like an eternity. On the other hand, I can sap someone and not be able to cap an AB flag before it wears off -naturally- a significant percent of the time. Saps will never last more than 15 secs, as it already has a reduced duration in PvP vs PvE (in which it also has a good chance to break way early).
My saps don't last 10 secs 50% of the time as it is. What's next, 5 sec saps, half duration stuns?
On the other hand I can't think of when I've been sapped and it lasted less than full duration. =(
I'm mostly convinced that Blizzard has a series of rogue-bots that run around servers sapping people for 73 seconds and stunning them for 30 seconds at a time while backstabbing for 2.9k them at a rate of 1 backstab per 0.5 seconds, because I can't otherwise explain it :P
(I know what you mean, though. It feels like an eternity when you're sapped, but when you're sapping, it feels like it lasts just long enough to lull you into a false sense of security and then it breaks, letting your opponent brutally deatomize you.)
Need a Mumble server? I run MMO-Mumble for all your voice chat needs. | My rogue planning tool: Shadowcraft
I don't see this as needed at all in light of the player mitigation changes, and really fucks over burst classes(ie: Mage and Rogue)
They're already increasing the duration of fights via HP increases, so nerfing the last refuge of burst DPSers running out of steam, CC, is a double whammy that unless these new talents and spells are going to have huge repercussions, seems way too excessive.
Burst classes get extra kiting options for PvP. Did you see the new Mage and Rogue talents with all the Dazing and effects when opponent is Dazed? It's no longer going to be Sheep -> Pyro -> PoM Pyro -> Fireblast and win, like how a regular BRM PvP fight was for me yesterday, instead more HP and mitigation and less CC means, and I say this carefully, more "skill" required in PvP fights. Classes that rely a lot on CC will have be played with a lot more finesse, you can't simply blow 3 CC's on someone and not care because the fight will be over in 5 seconds. This is the expansion, people will survive your burst and come after you still. It will take careful timing and more ingenuity when something doesn't work out or gets resisted, wearing your opponent down and really outplaying him, rather then a CC, 3 nukes and fight over.
As a warrior, I'm very much looking forward to less effectiveness of CC. It is most likely going to be a change of pace for caster classes though, and I can see why they're upset by this. Mostly though I'm relieved that they're actually giving PvP a second thought now.
Burst classes get extra kiting options for PvP. Did you see the new Mage and Rogue talents with all the Dazing and effects when opponent is Dazed?
Please explain to me how a melee-class kites someone to death. "Rupture kiting" doesn't count, because it takes approximately 3 years per kill, extremely lucky crippling poison procs (though this will change with Shiv, I guess), and only happens in duels with nearly no lag and zero chance of outside interference.
Rogues get Blade Twisting and Deadly Throw which are dazes, but last time I checked, don't have any way to capitalize on a Daze. It'll help keep folks in range, but it isn't going to help us kite anything.
Mages already get plenty of kiting utilities - rank 1 frostbolt, frost nova, blast wave (fire), frostbite (frost), ice armor/chill, blink, and poly when need be to gain some distance. Adding a daze into their lineup won't magically transition them into kiters - they already are.
Need a Mumble server? I run MMO-Mumble for all your voice chat needs. | My rogue planning tool: Shadowcraft
As a warrior, I'm very much looking forward to less effectiveness of CC. It is most likely going to be a change of pace for caster classes though, and I can see why they're upset by this. Mostly though I'm relieved that they're actually giving PvP a second thought now.
Do you mean you hope they put hamstring on a cooldown? ;)
As a warrior, I'm very much looking forward to less effectiveness of CC. It is most likely going to be a change of pace for caster classes though, and I can see why they're upset by this. Mostly though I'm relieved that they're actually giving PvP a second thought now.
Do you mean you hope they put hamstring on a cooldown? ;)
I suppose they can do that, and I can technically only see benefits: Blizzard already somewhat admitted that didn't like the Spamstring strat Horde guilds used when they explained the Windfury nerf. It will also place more emphasis on Shield Bash and Piercing Howl, and with this better Rage Management, rather than HULK SMASH at every opportunity. Warriors are getting a lot more HP and resilience on their PvP set, I can only conclude they want us as some sort of high HP/Armor/Resilience guy that hits freaking hard if you let him, with a few tools that will let him if you don't counter those.
Originally Posted by Antiarc
Originally Posted by Rane
Burst classes get extra kiting options for PvP. Did you see the new Mage and Rogue talents with all the Dazing and effects when opponent is Dazed?
Please explain to me how a melee-class kites someone to death. "Rupture kiting" doesn't count, because it takes approximately 3 years per kill, extremely lucky crippling poison procs (though this will change with Shiv, I guess), and only happens in duels with nearly no lag and zero chance of outside interference.
Rogues get Blade Twisting and Deadly Throw which are dazes, but last time I checked, don't have any way to capitalize on a Daze. It'll help keep folks in range, but it isn't going to help us kite anything.
Mages already get plenty of kiting utilities - rank 1 frostbolt, frost nova, blast wave (fire), frostbite (frost), ice armor/chill, blink, and poly when need be to gain some distance. Adding a daze into their lineup won't magically transition them into kiters - they already are.
For Rogues, I'm seeing indeed something what you refer to as Rupture-kiting versus melee classes. Very reliant on poisons, with Shiv for that important Crippling hit and waiting for that opportunity to strike. Stun for a few seconds, DPS, move out and wait for another opportunity to arise. In group PvP, you will be a disruption class with a high potential for a quick burst and then back out of range. I'll say this though, I think Rogues are among the biggest losers in this right now, and I hope it works out better when we're actually live with these changes.
As for Mages, yes they do have a lot of kiting options. However, why bother with kiting when right now, you can just sheep, nuke and win?
Burst classes get extra kiting options for PvP. Did you see the new Mage and Rogue talents with all the Dazing and effects when opponent is Dazed?
Please explain to me how a melee-class kites someone to death.
Perhaps the new rogue abilities will allow them to be kited less (hi2u daze-lock?[Will daze be on diminishing returns btw?]), which will thus increase their pvp prowess.
The Daze talent for rogues is meaningless in the context of not being kited.
Deadly Throw and Shiv, however, are not. Controllable snare application and a way to break a kite via ranged snare application (and, with the PvP gloves, a ranged spell interrupt - I know what my first PvP purchase will be!) are quite meaningful.
Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
I suppose I should wait until I see how this actually works but passing judgement, but it's certainly amusing. The passive bonus on the priest arena set is "Increases the duration of your Psychic Scream by 1 second." If it's going to last 3 seconds instead of 9, that's very funny to me. I'd have to imagine that there is some sort of mechanics change that to accompany this. If poly's only going to last 5 seconds at a maximum, it'll likely be coded to last that full 5 seconds as long as there is no outside interference.
It's going to be funny considering the priest's only escape ability has been shortened, I mean it was bad enough in the first place, but I can honestly see no way in which you can protect a priest now if you can't CC people as much, and people won't drop as quick :/
I just hope it doesn't turn into a game of 3 / 4 people vs 1 healer, and whomever gets the healer down quicker tends to win due to the fact that there is now little you can do to get people off the healer (in an equal geared match of course.)
Nevertheless I feel that all theses designs counteract everything the rogues class is meant to be: a class with burst damage and single target CC. Experiences show that prolonged fights will in general put a rogue into a disadvantagous position due to his long cooldowns and his brittleness. Sure, we get some new tools as well, but general game mechanics will more than counteract that.
Drysc goes on to say in response to a question of how CC changes will affect "glass-cannon" classes such as rogues/mages - his response was that while changes to CC are certainly incoming, that the overall big picture modifications being made to all classes from 60-70 will alter their view of these changes.
Am I the only one who can read this bit? Can we stop with the "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" theorycrafting over outcomes we have no way of predicting? I'm sure Blizz have figured out by now that rogues and mages thrive on burst dps and/or CC, and as it stands would be worst-hit by lower CC timers and higher HP pools. And I'm equally sure they have plans to do something about it. So stop crying nerf before the bat's even been swung.
If they were to balance it properly it would show in the already published L70 talents and spells. Sure, there are quite a lot of abilities raising survivabilty, BUT most of them procc random (25 % to avoid fatal damage, 90 % immunity to spells). Imho such percentage based abilities do not match the idea of giving more control to the players. It becomes even more a lottery if I survive an execute (dodge/miss and does the ability procc). Its imho a bad game decision, the same they made when designing the SoC of the pally. I am not crying, I will adapt but I think it is necessary to point out possible weak spots of the decisions made now.
As a priest (who has one escape option with many counters), I've always depended on the mage/warlock to shake the person off me so I can get some distance. Without strong CC's, I can imagine every warrior/rogue raping my face.
09/25/06, 3:32 PM
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