Phantom

Disclaimer: No, I don't know how things will turn out in the xpac. Merely getting thoughts down and looking for possible answers.

Right now I'm asking myself the question: Why would you have a Paladin tank? We all know Paladins can tank 5-10 mans, even if not prot specced. So why spec into Prot when you can spec Holy or Ret and be more versatile and still tank, as tanking talents are found in those trees (Blessed Life, Divine Purpose)?

To tank in raids?

Let me see if I'm understanding this right. Warriors get:

More health (natural stamina gap greater at 70, Vitality talent)
More mitigation (shield block, def stance, magic damage reduction talent, higher defense/resilience due to itemization budgets)
Magic Reflection
Intervene (another charge; now you can go after a loose mob more easily whacking someone)
Rage (which is still better than mana)

What do Paladins have which would make them desirable at all? Ardent Defender? I could possible see a gimmiky fight where you could keep a paladin low on life to consistantly take 50% less damage, but that's it. AoE tanking? Why, when warriors can Battle Shout, Demo shout, Piercing Howl, Challenging Shout, etc? Still, I suppose a Paladin might shine in this role, but how much AoE tanking will be required in the xpac? Is this the trend Blizzard is heading towards?

I was waiting to see what Bear tanks would get, to determine if Blizzard was serious about making multiple tanks. And they did indeed massively improve Bear tanks to tank about as well as warriors, if differently.

I honestly would have liked to see Blessed Life and Divine Purpose in Prot. The reduction in damage taken would havbe made up for the lower life totals, even though DP works against Reckoning (still would like to see it make a change similar to Redoubt). One of my thoughts was that Magic Reflection and Intervene could be Paladin abilities; intervene does sound like the charge version of our Righteous Defense. Making the Paladin the "saver" and "magic tank" vs. the warrior as the "physical tank" might have been interesting.

Itemization is still an unknown, but if they are sticking with the item budget scheme, Paladins still have more stats to cover than warriors.

Sustainability of the mana bar seems to have been solved, and aggro generation seems decent. But mitigation still seems to fall far enough behind that Paladins are still a 3rd rate tank.

The only advantages I can possibly see, is if you can pop Divine Shield, and then taunt the mob to attack you. Not sure if this combo will work, though. And will our Taunt work on taunt-immune mobs since it targets a player, and not the mob? This could mean Paladin tanks might be more desirable in aggro sensitive fights vs. mobs that are taunt-immune.

So how about you; Why would you want a Paladin tank? Is there something I'm not seeing here? Do you feel more changes are needed to make Paladin tanks wanted? Do I want too much?

 

• frmorrison

There was a thead a month ago, http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=8088 that discusses tanking (and the other talents as well).

The trees are still in flux so Blessed Life/Divine Purpose could be moved around, but certainly Blizzard wants Pallys to be a stronger tanking class.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

• Cynic

Simple answer: You don't.

You may *have* to at some point, being short on druids and warriors, but a paladin tank is never something you *want* to have.

 

Phantom

I apologize if this thread might seem redundant. I was aware of the other, but wanted this thread to be more about tanking, and comparisons with warriors and bears. If it is redundant, I'll repost over there.

You bring up a good point. But then why spec into Prot? You want different healer types and different DPS types. Why not different tank types? Bears will have massive HP and AC totals, and with their -crit talent, should be very functional MTs if the gear supports it. Why not Paladins, too?

 

arc

Paladins are situationally the best AoE tanks/kiters. For example, on Gluth our kite is one paladin and a couple warriors with piercing howl. Just runs in a circle and drops consecrates on the raid. We use paladin tanks on fights like Fankriss, or the panther boss as well.

Their AoE threat generation is much more "secure" than a warrior's. Nothing slips through really.

And of course paladins make effective single-target tanks on fights with lots of adds. Garr, or even Faerlina, for example. They're certainly not ideal, but not everyone has the capability to stack a raid. If a fight in TBC needs, say, 6 tanks, you're probably going to use your 3-4 warriors, and a couple pallies to handle it, rather than logging on all the twink warriors. One particular advantage of using paladins over druids for offtanking roles is that a paladin can still BoP, BoF, cleanse, etc, while tanking something. Druids can't really shift out of their form while tanking, not safely at least.

 

• frmorrison

Since classes will be rarer in the expansion, yet BoK is nearly the best buff around, so maybe 11 in Prot will be required to ensure raids have it around. Also, Prot has some nice PvP tricks in it (the resistance auras stopping damage, more stuns) and decent tanking stuff (10% armor, buffed redoubt, 3% to hit and Holy Shield is decent for mitigation).

It is hard to judge a tree when things are in flux, but a pally should do well with the new healing to mana talent and 31 in Prot, and like was said earlier, you can cleanse and throw out a flash heal if needed while tanking, keep up JoW/JoL, while a druid can't do much (other than the small heal given by Imp LotP and the 25% bleed damage increase).

With sockets, getting the right gear isn't as much of an issue as it has been in the past, so Prot Pallys will work better than a Enchancement Shaman at least.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Morfina

I think the focus on Feral spec and paladin prot spec definately indicates that they want to keep creating encounters that involve a high amount of mobs, while at the same time cutting down the amount of Warriors it'd make sense to bring. Paladins now have snap-AE aggro; Warriors do too, but with a huge re-use. Warriors can't reliably hold AE aggro at all; Paladins just might be able to, with solid play and the right spec.

Then again, its all speculation. I guess we'll see when the time comes.

 

Phantom

I'd think a feral druid could switch between bear and cat for tanking or dps, whatever is needed. And DPS is always needed. A Ret pally may be able to do the same, which returns the question to: Why spec Prot?

Ok, 11 points in for BoK. Only 1 pally needs to do this per raid. Why go further? To be a little better at being a 3rd rate tank while sacrificing much versatility? A Holy pally can top the healing charts as well as off tank. A Ret pally adds efficient sustainable DPS and enhances the group/raid, as well as off tank. A prot pally... can off tank.

Let's say Blizz is heading in the direction of more AoE tanking, ie, tanking multiple mobs. How is this in practice today? Well, with the croc packs in ZG and the fire imps in MC, it's more efficient to just AoE them down while the MT runs in and does a challenging shout. For things that hit harder, using a couple of warrior tanks is usually better, due to superior mitigation and higher life totals, ie, safer and easier to keep them alive vs. a Paladin that's more easily critted.

And AOE tanking is generally done on trash, and perhaps a few gimicky fights like Panther boss. Do you want to spec to make dealing with trash slightly easier?

Personally, none of the 32+ talents look attractive. I'm leaning to a 30 Ret build, with 31 in prot or holy, depending on whether I want to back up tank or heal. Right now, 31 in holy seems to be the clear winner. I can still tank 5-10 mans, and my best attribute (efficient healing) satisfies the min-maxing needed for raids. When healing isn't needed as much, I can add some damage. If I do need to hold something in a raid, a good set of +stam +resilience gear will do me fine, I'm assuming.

I still forsee Prot being the ugly duckling because of this. All other things being equal, speccing into Prot makes warriors kickass tanks, at the cost of their DPS.

I think an interesting idea, that I've heard before: Make Flash of Light instant cast, self only, 15 second cooldown. Holy Light instant cast, 45 second cooldown. Bump mana cost up. Holy tree has talents to reduce cooldown. Viola. Now the paladin makes up for less life with heals. Can spot heal without resetting swing timer. As a bonus, in PvP, prevents a total shutdown via Counterspell/kick/etc. Going slightly OT, but removing the channeled heals would go a long way toward getting the paladin back on the front line.

 

silya

A 31 prot/30 ret paladin can still buff, and his buffs are still as good as holy spec paladin buffs.
If you had no other paladins in a 25 man raid a paladin wins over a warrior simply due to salv.

Paladins always had better mitigation than druids due to shield block and parry.

 

◊ Cathela

Obviously if you need someone to tank the One Big Boss, and you have a Prot Warrior and a Prot Paladin available, you use the warrior. That's the way it should be, and barring some major screwup by Blizzard, that's the way it will be. That much goes without saying.

It's when you get into multi-tank situations that things get different. I can see a lot of cases where you'd prefer to use a Prot Paladin as your #2 or #3 tank over, say, an Arms/Fury warrior -- you might need the warrior's dps more than the paladin's healing, for example. That's pretty much the place feral druids are in now -- very rarely raid MTs, but quite capable as OTs, and in many situations even preferable in that role over non-prot warriors.

Spiritual Attunement doesn't just solve the mana issue; it goes a long way towards evening the playing field for gear as well. You won't need to worry nearly as much about gearing for int and mp5 -- maybe not at all depending on how much damage is coming in. At the very least, you'll be able to fill most of your slots with any plate tanking gear that doesnt have "Classes: Warrior" stamped on it. That goes a long way towards evening out the hp and mitigation differences.

AoE tanking is still going to be the strong point for paladins. Regarding the warrior abilities you listed: Demo Shout and Piercing Howl generate minimal threat, Challenging Shout is an "oh crap" ability on a 10-minute cooldown, and spamming Battle Shout to generate AoE threat is a gimmick effect that I very much doubt was intended by the developers. I would be surprised if it still worked in BC. Warriors simply have nothing analogous to Consecration -- which conveniently enough will be a baseline paladin ability in BC. Just as conveniently, Righteous Defense will taunt multiple targets -- the perfect thing for saving a mage who's gotten a little too excited about his AoE.

The spread of Blessed Life, Ardent Defender, and Divine Purpose across all three trees is a pretty clear indicator that all paladins are supposed to be able to tank to some degree, which is the way it should be. But Prot will still be the preferred tanking tree, having better mitigation and much more efficient threat generation than the other two -- Holy Shield absolutely buries anything else for threat per mana.

My guess is that Spiritual Attunement will be tweaked so that a Prot-spec paladin will have more gearing freedom than a Ret or Holy spec -- so all specs will be able to tank, but if you don't have Holy Shield, then SA won't give you enough mana by itself.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

silya

Why should it be that way? Warriors are a tank/dps hybrid, paladins are a tank/support hybrid. Why should one hybrid be a better tank than the other. I actually think Blizzard will design encounters for each tank in the game (druid, paladin, warrior) in about equal measure.

It's funny that you implicitly assume battle shout is a gimmick but consecration is not, although their effects are almost the same.

Blessed Life is a joke. Argent defender is a poor talent because it means giving up vengeance.
The disadvantage of paladins is that, unlike warriors, they cannot be viable tanks after spending only 20 or so points in a 'tank tree.' Paladins who want to tank need to base their entire build on it.

I don't view ret as an independent spec, it only makes sense as a threat gen. component of a full tank spec that also includes 31 prot.

 

• goss

Battleshout aggro is only useful in very specific scenarios that usually have another aggro mechanic involved (Twin Emps)...maybe not a gimmick, but certainly situational to the point of absurdity. Consecration's threat generation, on the other hand, scales with both gear and talents - its use for tanking is obvious (it sure isn't for damage).

 

silya

Battleshout aggro scales with the number of mobs you tank. Consecrate scales with gear and talents. But then, most paladin threat scales with gear (+holy damage and %crit). Most warrior threat is constant.

edit: I mean 'demoralizing shout.'

 

Lumi

er... consecration doesn't have a cap on targets. It also scales "with the number of mobs you tank".

 

Binks-Hyjal

Consecration is a gimmick, it scales poorly with gear and fairs even worse in the gear required to tank effectively.

 

silya

You don't understand what I mean when I say 'battle shout scales with the number of mobs you tank.' I mean that the threat it puts out goes up with the number of mobs you are tanking.

edit: I mean 'demoralizing shout' not 'battle shout.'

 

Lumi

I still don't understand what you are saying. Demo shout adds x threat to each target that gets hit. Consecration adds x threat to each target that gets hit. Same idea here, just different values.

 

◊ Cathela

I think there will be the occasional fight where a paladin or a druid tank is flat-out preferable to a warrior. But a Prot warrior is still going to be the best single-target tank, and I have a hard time seeing how a Prot warrior won't be preferable as a primary tank on a majority of fights. And I don't have a problem with that. A prot warrior is more gimped at dps than a prot paladin is at healing.

Consecration is straightforward. It does Holy damage over time across an area, and paladins have an ability that boosts threat generated by Holy damage. The intent is obvious.

By contrast, using Battle Shout for AoE threat requires specific conditions and has odd quirks for an AoE threat generator. Party members (not just raid members) have to be within the range of the shout. Threat generated is proportional to the number of people buffed, so in a 3-man group it's only 60% as effective as in a 5-man. Range to the mobs is irrelevant as long as the warrior is on their threat table. Multiple warriors in the same party can't both do it unless they have exactly the same rank and talents, because any difference leaves one warrior unable to overwrite the shouts of the other. The whole thing is just too quirky for me to believe it was ever intended to be an AoE threat tool.

If the developers had intended warriors to have serious AoE threat abilities, Demo Shout would have been the logical choice, since it doesn't depend on the number of party members nearby and has limited range.


It's the weakest of the three, certainly. But an average 5% damage mitigation is pretty nice.

I don't think Vengeance is necessary for tanking if you've got Improved RF and Holy Shield.

At present that's true, because without Holy Shield you have to burn mana like crazy to generate threat. But Spiritual Attunment will change things pretty significantly. All specs will have more freedom to wear "warrior" tanking gear and thus improve mitigation. As I said above, I think protection will still be on top (certainly I hope so if the devs know what they're doing) but Holy and especially Ret should be quite viable as tanks.

Not sure what you mean exactly by "full tank spec". If you're after the best possible tanking spec, I think 41 Prot is going to beat anything with 30 Ret. You'll want the "oh crap" factor of Ardent Defender more than the extra threat from Vengeance.

But 41 Ret will still have Deflection and Divine Purpose availble, neither of which are shabby at all. It won't have the mana efficiency of 41 Prot, but it should be quite capable of functioning in an OT role with the right gear.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Kailhasa

(Disclaimer: Last time I played a pally was open beta, don't mind the stupid question :P)

I'm curious as to what kind of AoE tank a 0/31/30 Pally could be. Redoubt + Holy Shield (+60% chance to block, dang), Sanctuary, Imp Righteous Fury, Sanctity Aura and Vengeance... spam Consecration, Holy Shield, and as much SoCom or SoR as your mana pool can handle. That would be a hell of a lot of holy threat, no?

 

silya

Wrong: demo shout adds x*[number of targets affected] to each target that gets hit.

 

silya

Ask your friendly raid tank how often AD would have made a difference to them living through a spike. I heard a figure of 5%. Now crunch the threat per second numbers of full prot vs a paladin with vengeance vs a paladin without.

 

Phantom

Why? When you need to heal a single target, do you it's priest only? When you need to deal ranged damage, do you say mage only? I haven't heard a single rationale that makes sense for this. I'd be willing to grant Warriors better tank status by virtue of rage being superior to mana alone. But I see no reason why a Paladin who gears and specs himself for tanking (and loves doing it), gimping his healing and damage, should be 3rd rate next to the Bear and Warrior who can still DPS as well as tank.

Ah, but Bears are getting massively buffed, and will most likely MT more often. Against hexing bosses like Jindo they are already good. But they'll also be good against lots of little hits, or against single big hits (ala patchwerk), especially with the +stam item budget change.

Warriors can use the same gear, and ahve more life, via natural stamina differences, and Vitality. And I doubt you'll be able to get away from stacking mp/5. DPS ceiling depends on how much aggro the tank is building. More holy damage = higher DPS ceiling = more mana used = shorter fight.

Why not CC the group and take them out one at a time? Have a hunter or mage kite adds? That said, I'd hate to see AoE gimmick encounters thrown in just to appease paladin tanks. This would just be like core hound packs for mages or tranq shot for hunters.

I don't buy that line of reasoning. The Paladin can already tank at base with Righteous Fury, SOR, and a Shield. 1 piddly talent down deep in the tree isn't going to make up for any shortfalls. All it does is help gimp the build you are aiming for. If a Paladin wants to DPS and tank a little on the side, they'll spend 40ish points in Ret and 20 in Prot. I see no reason why 5 point talents should be buried deep in the trees, that do very little for the build the tree offers. Why have trees at all, then? I thought the idea was to specialize. It's like a painter taking 4 years of painting classes, and then 1 year of rocket science. It isn't additive to the end goal.

Actually, having Holy Shield would make SA worse. It costs you mana to use HS, and you block more often. More blocks = less damage taken = less HP to heal = less mana gained through SA. Will the amount be significant? I don't know. But this will lead to less gearing freedom as a prot paladin will need more mana regen than a non-prot paladin for tanking.

 

◊ Cathela

Does that mean after they've burned Last Stand and Shield Wall, then Ardent Defender would only help 5% of the time?

Generously one might say 10% extra threat, if you had Vengeance up 2/3 of the time. That would require you to gear for crit, with attendant losses in mitigation, hp, or +spelldamage. More likely 7% or so, and that on an unreliable basis.

I'd be surprised if adding that to Prot's already considerable threat was a difference maker on very many fights.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

silya

You really should do the numbers sometime, and compare them to bears and warriors. Building sustainable threat was always a paladin tank weakness. You will need vengeance.

 

◊ Cathela

In my experience, no.

EDIT: To clarify my position here, I'm quite sure our threat generation on single targets will be less than that of a warrior or bear, but that's not the test that we need to pass. All that matters is whether a paladin can generate enough threat to hold aggro against dps classes. If that means the dps classes have to wait five seconds for us to build aggro, but only have to wait two seconds for a bear/warrior, then that doesn't strike me as a severe handicap.

And again, we will have a taunt, so it's no longer the case that losing aggro once wipes the group.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.