There's an amazing amount of misinformation in this thread from peopel posting stuff without it being tested. That's not good.
In response to the above - Rank 1 scorch applies the debuff on level 60 mobs most of the time. As it's a level 20 spell, the debuff part of it cannot be being counted as level 20, as it would never stick if that were the case. It's not exactly hard to test - I just cast 10 rank 1 scorches on the giant bugs iin the twin emps room, and all 10 applied the debuff fine.
Actually, it turns out that the Fire Vulnerability effect of a scorch spell (with 3/3 in Improved Scorch, giving it a 100% chance to be applied) being resisted separately from the scorch itself is a bug and is not working as intended right now. The same goes for the Winter's Chill effect being resisted separately from the frost spell when you have 5 points in the Winter's Chill talent. I'm not sure at what percentages they're getting resisted (anecdotally it feels like 4 or 5% on bosses no matter how much +hit gear I have), but if it was working correctly the Fire Vulnerability or Winter's Chill effects would never get resisted separately from the spell if you had max points in the respective talent. It's hard to nail down a definite number for the rate at which a talent mechanic is officially broken, or how best to lower the rate at which it's broken.
I don't know what they broke when the mage review went live in patch 1.11, but if you ever used 5/5 improved scorch before that patch (Winter's Chill was a completely different talent before the review) you never ever saw the Fire Vulnerability effect resisted seperately from the scorch.
Are you absolutely sure about that? I can't really remember because I never really looked out for Imp. Scorch prior to 1.11, but I do know that Frostbite always had a separate chance to be resisted from whatever Frost Spell procced it, along with Imp. Blizzard. Seeing a little cloud of white and yellow resists mixed in with the Blizzard damage was always a cause for concern when Suppression Room pulling. Of course, now, Frostbite and Winter's Chill still get a substantial amount of resists over and above Frostbolt resists, though it's hard to parse.
While we cannot directly see the debuff timers on a mob, I can definitely infer them from the extremely rare situation where I am the only fire mage refreshing a scorch debuff stack. I am often somewhat proactive about refreshing the debuff but I have positively seen a stack lapse after one or two untimely debuff resists. I know, only anecdotal evidence indeed but it can still happen and is annoying enough to be notable when it does.
I was actually unaware that this had been positively identified as a bug though and am quite pleased to hear it is on the dev wishlist.
Actually, it turns out that the Fire Vulnerability effect of a scorch spell (with 3/3 in Improved Scorch, giving it a 100% chance to be applied) being resisted separately from the scorch itself is a bug and is not working as intended right now. The same goes for the Winter's Chill effect being resisted separately from the frost spell when you have 5 points in the Winter's Chill talent. I'm not sure at what percentages they're getting resisted (anecdotally it feels like 4 or 5% on bosses no matter how much +hit gear I have), but if it was working correctly the Fire Vulnerability or Winter's Chill effects would never get resisted separately from the spell if you had max points in the respective talent. It's hard to nail down a definite number for the rate at which a talent mechanic is officially broken, or how best to lower the rate at which it's broken.
I don't know what they broke when the mage review went live in patch 1.11, but if you ever used 5/5 improved scorch before that patch (Winter's Chill was a completely different talent before the review) you never ever saw the Fire Vulnerability effect resisted seperately from the scorch.
Are you absolutely sure about that? I can't really remember because I never really looked out for Imp. Scorch prior to 1.11, but I do know that Frostbite always had a separate chance to be resisted from whatever Frost Spell procced it, along with Imp. Blizzard. Seeing a little cloud of white and yellow resists mixed in with the Blizzard damage was always a cause for concern when Suppression Room pulling. Of course, now, Frostbite and Winter's Chill still get a substantial amount of resists over and above Frostbolt resists, though it's hard to parse.
I had 5/5 Improved Scorch for over six months before the mage review went live, and I never ever ever had the Imp Scorch debuff get resisted separately from the spell before 1.11. Ever. Not once. Besides that, there's the link to the blue post stickied in the Bug Report Forum stating that talents that proc off of spells getting resisted despite having a 100% chance to be applied is a known bug. I don't know what else you want.
I've seen people make claims like Zoner's in the past but I have never seen any hard numbers for it. A lot of them seem to stem from people misunderstanding the following line in the 1.07 patch notes:
Debuffs and area effect spells now use their actual cast level rather than effective cast level for calculating periodic resistance.
I know a lot of people misread that patch note.
What the patch note is saying is the players current level is used for spells instead of the level at which the rank becomes available. It was their ban-aid for the fact there was no level 60 rank of Frostbolt, which was seeing more misses than necessary. However this patch note does not apply to procs on spells from talents.
I assume its a very basic coding convention:
You Cast shadow bolt. The 'owner' of the shadowbolt is the player. The code uses the level of the owner for resistance calculations, which is 60.
Improved Shadow bolt procs. The 'owner' of the proc is the shadowbolt. The code doesn't or is unable to follow it all the way back to the caster, and merely uses the level of the shadowbolt (which is the level of whatever rank you cast).
This is extremely easy to test in duels with rank 1 shadowbolt and a mere 5 shadow resist.
What I have to GUESS on, is whether or not the proc itself has to hit the target or not with level bassed hit/miss rate. It is feasable that the proc bypasses this check, and only has to deal with resistances. Which current rumor has it as an unmitigatable 8 points per level difference, basically a -2% per level difference.
Essentially, if your claim was true then I would be pretty much unable to use Improved Counterspell, Rank 1 Frost Nova, Rank 1 Blizzard and other such effects. Since this is not the case, I hope you provide some numbers to back it. Unless I'm vastly misunderstanding you.
Imp Counter Spell should see a 75% resist rate on the silence with 120 arcane resistance.
Rank 1 Frost Nova is not a proc, and would be unaffected. Winter's Chill and Frostbite procs on the other hand are another mater.
Rain of Fire and Blizzard are likely set as level 250 or something bizarre, as they rarely cause reduced damage on highly resistant targets, compared to Hellfire (i.e. see Red Drakonid's at nef taking 2x more damage from ROF than hellfire even though the dps is half).
You Cast shadow bolt. The 'owner' of the shadowbolt is the player. The code uses the level of the owner for resistance calculations, which is 60.
Improved Shadow bolt procs. The 'owner' of the proc is the shadowbolt. The code doesn't or is unable to follow it all the way back to the caster, and merely uses the level of the shadowbolt (which is the level of whatever rank you cast).
This is extremely easy to test in duels with rank 1 shadowbolt and a mere 5 shadow resist.
If this was true then I would be incapable of using rank 1 frostbolt to apply Winter's Chill and Frostbite on a level 60 target successfully. This is not the case. To be completely sure I even had a guildmate get online and use rank 1 scorch on a lvl 60 mob twenty times. He didn't receive any resists on the imp scorch debuff.
Also, using Shadowbolt for this exercise is a bad tool to test with due to Imp Shadowbolt requiring a crit to even proc.
edit: This theory was tested on both elite and non-elite 61+ mobs in Ahn'Qiraj last night using both rank 1 Frostbolt as frost and rank 1 Scorch as fire. Neither had resist rates remotely in line with Zoner's explanation.
What the patch note is saying is the players current level is used for spells instead of the level at which the rank becomes available. It was their ban-aid for the fact there was no level 60 rank of Frostbolt, which was seeing more misses than necessary. However this patch note does not apply to procs on spells from talents.
I assume its a very basic coding convention:
You Cast shadow bolt. The 'owner' of the shadowbolt is the player. The code uses the level of the owner for resistance calculations, which is 60.
Improved Shadow bolt procs. The 'owner' of the proc is the shadowbolt. The code doesn't or is unable to follow it all the way back to the caster, and merely uses the level of the shadowbolt (which is the level of whatever rank you cast).
This is extremely easy to test in duels with rank 1 shadowbolt and a mere 5 shadow resist.
What I have to GUESS on, is whether or not the proc itself has to hit the target or not with level bassed hit/miss rate. It is feasable that the proc bypasses this check, and only has to deal with resistances. Which current rumor has it as an unmitigatable 8 points per level difference, basically a -2% per level difference.
This is not only incorrect, it's easily proved false almost immediately. Rank 1 scorch on the bugs in the twin emps room, applies the debuff just as easily as the final rank. Same with rank 1 frostbolt. I tested it mid raid just now.
Please don't post stuff without actually having tested it on PvE mobs.
You Cast shadow bolt. The 'owner' of the shadowbolt is the player. The code uses the level of the owner for resistance calculations, which is 60.
Improved Shadow bolt procs. The 'owner' of the proc is the shadowbolt. The code doesn't or is unable to follow it all the way back to the caster, and merely uses the level of the shadowbolt (which is the level of whatever rank you cast).
This is extremely easy to test in duels with rank 1 shadowbolt and a mere 5 shadow resist.
If this was true then I would be incapable of using rank 1 frostbolt to apply Winter's Chill and Frostbite on a level 60 target successfully. This is not the case. To be completely sure I even had a guildmate get online and use rank 1 scorch on a lvl 60 mob twenty times. He didn't receive any resists on the imp scorch debuff.
Monsters outside of raid dungeons do not exhibit level based resistance (i.e. the '8 per level'). Let alone level 60's that are the same level as you. My level 16 mage can attack level 20+ wolves in Duskwood and never see a partial resist on fireball.
Also, using Shadowbolt for this exercise is a bad tool to test with due to Imp Shadowbolt requiring a crit to even proc.
Its 4 or 6 crits per minute with rank 1 if you have a stormwind buff or not. Even after a mere 10 minutes you will have enough crits to see a 75% resist rate.
If you want something hard to test its pyroclasm and aftermath on soulfire, with a shard requirement and a 60 second cooldown.
Or measureing how +hit actually works in-game under 1% accuracy with COW/COR for 40+ minutes of mind numbing cursing a resistant opponent, then doing it again with different gear and specs.
This is not only incorrect, it's easily proved false almost immediately. Rank 1 scorch on the bugs in the twin emps room, applies the debuff just as easily as the final rank. Same with rank 1 frostbolt. I tested it mid raid just now.
Please don't post stuff without actually having tested it on PvE mobs.
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you're way off. The debuff from Improved Scorch getting resisted separately from the scorch itself is a known bug, as stated in this blue post here:
Before patch 1.11 Improved Scorch was never ever resisted separately from the spell. Besides, improved scorch getting resisted at a 39% clip? Are you nuts?
From the link:
'Certain effects that proc off of spells can be resisted despite having 100% chance to be applied. '
Basically the fact it is on this list basically means that a game designer needs to figure out if it is a bug or not and decide to change how the game works or not. Either way is valid, and not necessarily a bug. Its listed because the players have noticed, whatever QA reads the forums has verified it to exist, and specific procs have '100%' in their tooltip.
And even then that doesn't change the fact of how the game currently works, and that is procs are not always level 60, and can in fact be resisted.
My prediction? The wording of '100% 'in the tooltips for spells are abilities get changed, and the game continues to work as-is.
You guys know that he's talking about resistances based on the elemental damage types (Shadow, Frost, Fire, Nature, Holy, Arcane) and NOT level based resists, right?
I'm gonna test this out later tonight with SB and another warlock throwing up a low rank of Demon...Skin?
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
This is not only incorrect, it's easily proved false almost immediately. Rank 1 scorch on the bugs in the twin emps room, applies the debuff just as easily as the final rank. Same with rank 1 frostbolt. I tested it mid raid just now.
Please don't post stuff without actually having tested it on PvE mobs.
The bugs are 60, not elite, and not bosses.
Thaddius is. I always use Rank 1 scorch to put 5/5 fire vulnerability on him as the tank is pulling him over. He almost never resists the debuff, nowhere close to 39% anyway.
This is not only incorrect, it's easily proved false almost immediately. Rank 1 scorch on the bugs in the twin emps room, applies the debuff just as easily as the final rank. Same with rank 1 frostbolt. I tested it mid raid just now.
Please don't post stuff without actually having tested it on PvE mobs.
The bugs are 60, not elite, and not bosses.
Thaddius is. I always use Rank 1 scorch to put 5/5 fire vulnerability on him as the tank is pulling him over. He almost never resists the debuff, nowhere close to 39% anyway.
Presumably the proc starts out with a 100% chance to hit, but still has to filter through the elemental resistance of the target. Testing in PVP duels never showed a level based resistance factoring in, but PVE and PVP are different a lot of times, so its not conclusive. If there is a level based check on the proc for Imp Scorch it would show up as a 39% base miss rate since it is level 58, increased by elemental resistances on the targets and reduced by +hit.
Zoner, mobs outside of instances have *exactly* the same level based resists as bosses inside instances. Why do you think you can get partial holy resists on Smite as a priest levelling up? The level based extra resists is exactly the same on all mobs everywhere in the game. Level 61 Twilight camp dudes are a good test of this.
How many people does it need to tell you that this theory is completely wrong in all respects? And also, that your original reading of the patch notes was wrong. This "fix" was nothing to do with the last rank of frostbolt being level 56. Frostbolt has *never* suffered addtional penalties for being level 56 and not 60.
It was to do with the bug at the time that meant a rank 1 blizzard would trigger "immune" messages on any level 50+ mob you cast it in. As a frost mage at the time, it was incredibly annoying as I used rank 1 Blizzard when kiting a lot, and this was the patch that fixed that issue. If a frost bolt was being coutned as level 56, you do realise that a frost mage would be completely and utterly incapable of dealing any damage whatsoever in any level 60 instance? Whilst resists are never fun, they have never been that high.
Any interperetation of your theory gives a resist rate so sky high it's simply not viable, under any circumstances. The final rank of scorch does not have a base 39% to resist. The *first* rank of scorch doesn't have this high a number, be it on a boss, a random level 60 mob or anything else.
I don't really have anything to contribute except to chime in and say Zoner is wrong. You notice this pretty easily if you play a s.priest with shadow affinity. Shadow weaving is not linked to the spell applying it, having a noticeably higher resist rate not dependent on the spell's modified level.
According to the 'zonar theory', it would be impossible for shadow weaving to proc off of SW:P rank 1. I know for a fact a guildy of mine uses SW:P rank one to stack up shadow weaving on Rag.
At this point i'm willing to believe that it is a bug that will hopefully fixed shortly. Lets hope they never bug ignite like this.
I've seen Winter's Chill resisted separately from Frostbolt on numerous occasions. But yeah, it's listed as a known bug and hopefully it'll be fixed eventually.
Edit: I use rank 1 Frostbolt to get WC up in a pinch, like for the Huhu enrage or gargoyle stoneform, and it works more or less the same as r11.
You guys still don't seem to be reading Zoner's posts.
According to Zoner:
You should be able to stack SW w/ rank 1 SW:P on a guy with 0 shadow resistance easily. Exactly like you said.
However, it should be very hard to stack SW w/ rank 1 SW:P on a guy with only 20 shadow resistance (you get rank 1 at level 4. 4x5 per level = 20 shadow resistance max).
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
Zoner, mobs outside of instances have *exactly* the same level based resists as bosses inside instances.
This is not true you would always see partial resists leveling up caster classes while fighting things higher level than you. I leveled up a mage to 16 a few months ago to test out if level based resists were a game-wide mechanic or not, and I've yet to see a partial resist on anything even stuff as high as +7's. Just a lot of misses due to level.
Originally Posted by Maledict
Why do you think you can get partial holy resists on Smite as a priest levelling up?
Holy is weird. Please do some more more about holy, because the more you look into it the weirder it gets compared to all the other schools.
Originally Posted by Maledict
The level based extra resists is exactly the same on all mobs everywhere in the game. Level 61 Twilight camp dudes are a good test of this.
Go attack +5 to +8 anything with a mage. You won't see partials except on the very few monsters in the game that actually have resistance scores, that is until you get to raid dungeons.
Originally Posted by Maledict
How many people does it need to tell you that this theory is completely wrong in all respects?
An infinite number of who haven't tested anything aren't going to convince me of anything. There has to be more teeth in their words than 'you are wrong because I say so'. Contrary data should be easy to generate. For my experiences with my spells, the procs are absolutely and easily (for some at least) testable as being not level 60 and are also being affected by elemental resists. For me that is Improved Shadow Bolt, Pyroclasm, and Aftermath.
Originally Posted by Maledict
And also, that your original reading of the patch notes was wrong. This "fix" was nothing to do with the last rank of frostbolt being level 56. Frostbolt has *never* suffered addtional penalties for being level 56 and not 60.
Yes, it was before the patch. But before that patch fighting 63's with 56 spells (i.e. +7's) didn't cause upwards of 57% miss rates either. They changed how +hit works in that same patch, revamped the miss rate table due to level for PVE and PVP both, and made all base spells be have the effective level of the caster instead of the rank of the spell you cast. Procs did not get that change, or at the very least did not get them consistently or comprehensively for every class and every proc and every spell. My spell procs still have to deal with elemental resistances on the target and use the rank of the spell they are attached too. See also - rank 1 shadow bolt ISB procs resisting 75% of the time with 5 shadow resist.
Before that patch pretty much only Lucifron had 'real' resistance scores, everything else never generated partial resists on damaging spells, and every trash mob and boss in the game yielded vulnerability bonuses for going negative from COS and COE (except for frost since it was binary). Then they changed -spell to cap to 0 and never go negative, added +10% dmg to COS and COE so binary spells got some kind of bonus, and mysteriously every raid monster in the game boss is generating partial resists of around 24/315 resist for about 5% overall mitigation, regardless of how much -spell and debuffing you can do.
Originally Posted by Maledict
It was to do with the bug at the time that meant a rank 1 blizzard would trigger "immune" messages on any level 50+ mob you cast it in. As a frost mage at the time, it was incredibly annoying as I used rank 1 Blizzard when kiting a lot, and this was the patch that fixed that issue. If a frost bolt was being coutned as level 56, you do realise that a frost mage would be completely and utterly incapable of dealing any damage whatsoever in any level 60 instance? Whilst resists are never fun, they have never been that high.
See above.
Originally Posted by Maledict
Any interperetation of your theory gives a resist rate so sky high it's simply not viable, under any circumstances. The final rank of scorch does not have a base 39% to resist. The *first* rank of scorch doesn't have this high a number, be it on a boss, a random level 60 mob or anything else.
I misspoke on my first post about a single part of a giant equation used for spell resistances and aparently. The 39% exists only is if there is a to hit check for the proc. Whether that is true or not I can't tell for the case of Scorch becase I am not a mage, and PVE and PVP rules are about hit/miss for spells different enough you also can't prove it from duels. Testing in PVE is also problematic since the current -spell score on the target fluxuates in combat, and we are somewhat in the dark on the real resistance values of bosses.
Procs probably get a 100% hit rate and bypass the level based miss rate when they occur, however they still have to filter through elemental resistances, and for me it seems pretty clear that the effective level of the proc is not your level, it is the level of the rank of the spell you cast.
This is easily testable with a variety of spells. At the very least for my warlock spells and my procs. Considering that bug report on QA was filed by mages, it seems to me that its a game-wide thing due to the old hit/miss and COS/COE nerf patch and people are slowly waking up to it and getting pedantic with the wording on their tooltips (i.e. '100%' chance).
Easy tests:
Mage:
Silence proc from Improved Counter Spell on a target with 120 AR
Winter's Chill proc from Rank 1 Frostbolt on a target with 20 FrR
Impact proc from Rank 1 Fireball on a target with 5 FR
Improved Scorch from Rank 1 Scorch on a target with 110 FR
Warlock:
Improved Shadow Bolt proc from Rank 1 Shadowbolt crits on a target with 5 SR
Aftermath proc from Rank 1 Shadowbolt on a target with 5 FR
Pyroclasm with Rank 1 Soul Fire with 240 FR
Pyroclasm with Rank 1 Rain of Fire with 170 FR
Priest:
Blackout proc from SW:P on a target with 20 SR
Shadow Weaving proc from SW:P on a target with 20 SR
Holy isn't in here, there isnt a resistance score officially in the game to test, although it certainly seems to exist for some monsters probably in the form of a hidden or unfinished resistance attribute.
Presumably there is the chance some of these procs are Physical school and will be unaffected by elemental resistances, good for them.
In most raids the highest ranks are used, so the resist rates on various procs are only going to be around 5%, at least when inside the raid dungeons. Even the plagueheart 2pc bonus generates resist messages on occasion, its bizarre.
If Blizzard has since fixed the procs to be your character's level since I ran my boring grueling dueling tests (which has been several months), then it should never resist in PVP duels ever, and only around 5% of the time on raid monsters since they still have that magical unmitigatable resistance score.
However many of the 'physical' ones on thottbot are still being resisted in game. Obviously we don't have all the information, since at times I doubt even Blizzard understands their own game. I would guess that the procs they are inheriting the traits of they spell they are attached too: their school and level, due to the change that let the base spells all be case at the effective level of our characters.
As for stacking debuffs from Ignite and Shadow Weaving, maybe they work as expected, or maybe just the first application has to deal with resists and increasing the stacks can bypass resistance? If Blizzard is good at one thing it is not being consistent :)
Originally Posted by Ska
Now are you telling me that Rag has <20 shadow resistance? That must make that fight nice for Locks
Rag doesn't have resistances, he is merely immune to fire. Of course the last time I fought him was around a year ago, and right around the massive hit change and COS/COE nerf and well before anyone really figured out what that meant.
The only bosses with some real amounts of resistances (caveat: shadow and fire) I've seen are Lucifron, Ossirian (when not vulnerable to a specific damage type), and Loatheb.
Every other boss generating extra resists for binary and partial damage on non-binary spells is from the not well explained or understood '24 resist on a raid boss that cant be mitigated' mechanic. These did not exist before that patch, bosses had vulnerability bonuses with COS and COE up until then.
Things will clear up on this front when we hit level 61 in the expansion and see the mitigation of our raid damage change or not. Or if blizzard actually explains it, but I'm not holding my breath.
Considering that bug report on QA was filed by mages, it seems to me that its a game-wide thing due to the old hit/miss and COS/COE nerf patch and people are slowly waking up to it and getting pedantic with the wording on their tooltips (i.e. '100%' chance).
Once again, you're way off base. I've tried giving your posts the benefit of the doubt, but they consist of about 90% wild conjecture and 10% 'proof' that is quickly shot down.
The CoE/CoS nerf was introduced in patch 1.7 or 1.8, the same patch where spell penetration gear was introduced. After this same patch went live, people started noticing weird side-effects such as the increased number of partial resists to non-binary spells, which it turned out were caused by a difference in level -- people reported seeing partial resists to holy spells for the first time ever.
At that time, I had 5/5 Improved Scorch when very few raiding mages did. Even then, the fire vulnerability debuff never got resisted separately from the scorch. Ever. Not until several months later when 1.11 went live did I ever see a yellow number plus the word "Resist" appear above a mob's head for the first time. I'm telling you, they broke something when they implemented the new Winter's Chill talent that they either don't know how to fix yet or that they figure isn't worth the time fixing for the problem that it solves.
I'm convinced that this isn't a real intended game mechanic and that trying to figure it out is like pissing into a fan. If you don't think it's a bug, then that's up to you. But I'll present the facts to you one more time:
Fact 1: Pre-1.11, full points in Improved Scorch gave a 100% chance to apply a fire vulnerability debuff as long as the spell itself wasn't fully resisted
Fact 2: 1.11 goes live, and people start seeing the Improved Scorch debuff get resisted separately from the spell for the first time
Fact 3: The "Known Issues" sticky in the official Bug Report forum acknowledges something screwy with the fact that talents giving a 100% chance to proc an effect are getting resisted. This goes on the same list with many, many other known bugs.
Even if they never fix this 'bug', I don't think it was ever intended. To the extent that it is a working game mechanic, your hypothosese trying to figure it out are pretty far off and you need to go back to the drawing board.
Further, I don't have hard numbers to back this up (shouldn't be a problem, you haven't provided any real data to support your wild claims either), but anecdotally it's been my experience that:
-for applying the Improved Scorch debuff, the level of spell I cast makes no difference (I've used both max rank and rank 1 scorh on Thaddius and C'Thun to apply the debuff)
-having +16% to hit with gear and talents, I seem to have the Imp Scorch debuff resisted more often than the scorch itself by a noticeable margin for both trash mobs and bosses with the top rank of scorch
09/28/06, 5:45 PM
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